Predestination is misunderstood...

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Cameron143 said:
I've never read Calvin's writings. I am familiar with TULIP and largely agree with it, but as we discussed before, I come to my beliefs independently and differently than Calvin.
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Won't bring it up again-my apologies brother.
J.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Notice, It said God to them to circumcise their hearts.

Thats what we do when the light goes on and we see our guilt and shame, and call out to Jesus.

We circumcise our hearts when we react to the message and recieve it with full assurance as the author of Hebrews says
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I believe.
circumcision of the heart is when the sword Jesus came to bring, penetrates your soul.

Mary was was told that a sword would penetrate even her soul.

Do you think Jesus would have been happy about that, this was his own mother, but it has to be done.

Just as it has to be done in anyone who comes to the lord, and this sword is only designed to bring you fulfillment once it's work is done in full in any believer.


Because that sword is not meant to bring peace, but a word that would change you that would become offensive to you, judge you, correct you, even punish you. Divide brother and sister. And when Jesus comes back for his sword, which would be me you and everyone who has this sword will be judged by it.

No one,.not one will be able to say they never knew the lord, and there will be no excuses, as next time he comes to judge.

And anyone who has a sword will beat there sword from the hearts into the ploughshares, and Jesus will put the sheep on the right and goats on the left.

And he will judge and.settle disputes amongst the sheep. ( The nations).

Including everyone of your disputes if your here.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
You just made my point for me

Heis holy. A holy God can not relate to sin, or the sinful

He is just, He demands a payment (death)

and He is love, He loved so much he sent his son and died for us


I agree,

he said he died for the world. Not the elect..


But in your own belief syst3em you must be, God chose you, and rejected the person sitting next to you. Your both equally guilty, But God saw somethign in you. And saved you. While he rejected him,
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I don't believe God rejects anyone, per se. I believe men fit themselves for destruction. It is God Himself who says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. That is the sovereign choice God makes.
 
Johann said:
That was not necessary-we need to keep our emotions in check.


The concept that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God is elucidated in 1 Corinthians 2:14. This verse highlights the spiritual discernment required to comprehend divine truths and the inherent inability of those without the Spirit of God to grasp them.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (King James Version):
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

This verse emphasizes that individuals who do not possess the Spirit of God, often referred to as the "natural man," are unable to accept or comprehend spiritual truths. The verse conveys that such truths appear as foolishness to them due to their lack of spiritual insight and discernment.

Key Points:
Natural Man: Refers to individuals who are devoid of the Spirit of God, hence lacking spiritual discernment.

Rejection of Spiritual Truths: The natural man does not receive or accept spiritual teachings because they seem nonsensical or illogical to them.

Inability to Understand: The verse underscores that without spiritual discernment, individuals cannot grasp or comprehend divine truths as they are evaluated and understood through a spiritual lens.

Theological Implications:
This verse highlights the necessity of spiritual enlightenment for understanding God's wisdom and teachings.

It emphasizes the transformative role of the Holy Spirit in illuminating and revealing spiritual truths to believers.

It underscores the contrast between worldly wisdom and divine wisdom, with the former being inadequate for comprehending matters of faith.

In essence, 1 Corinthians 2:14 serves as a reminder of the profound difference between human understanding and spiritual discernment, emphasizing the crucial role of the Holy Spirit in enabling believers to perceive and embrace the truths of God.


To further explore the Greek text behind 1 Corinthians 2:14 and unpack its lexical meanings, let us examine the following passage:

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NA28 Greek Text)
ἀλλὰ ψυχὴ ἄφωνος ὁ γέννητός ἐν τοῖς πneumati θεοῦ μή πω λαβεῖν τὰ πνευματικά· δηλοῖ γάρ αὐτά τις ἀσυνετὸς ἔστιν αὐτά· οὐκ ἔχων γὰρ ἐξ ἐπιγνώσεως αὐτά

English Translation:
"However, the unspoken soul, the generated one, has not yet received the spiritual ones; indeed, something unintelligent is shown to be this; not having from knowledge these."

Lexical Analysis:
ἀλλὰ (Alla): Conjunction meaning "but" or "however."
ψυχὴ (Psychē): Noun meaning "soul" or "life."
ἄφωνος (Aphtonos): Adjective meaning "unspoken" or "silent."
ὁ (Ho): Article indicating singular masculine subject.
γέννητός (Gennetos): Adjective meaning "generated" or "born."
ἐν (En): Preposition meaning "in" or "by means of."
τοῖς (Tois): Definite article in genitive plural form, meaning "the."
πνευματικά (Pneumatika): Noun in nominative plural form, meaning "things pertaining to the Spirit" or "spiritual things."
δηλοῖ (Deiloi): Verb meaning "shows" or "indicates."
γάρ (Gar): Particle introducing explanation or clarification.
αὐτά (Auta): Pronoun in third person neuter plural form, referring back to "spiritual things."
ἀσυνετὸς (Asyntetos): Adjective meaning "unintelligent" or "without intelligence."
ἔχων (Echon): Verb in present passive participle form, meaning "having" or "possessing."
γὰρ (Gar): Particle introducing explanation or clarification.
ἐξ (Ex): Preposition meaning "from" or "out of."
ἐπιγνώσεως (Epignoeseos): Genitive form of the noun "epignosis," meaning "knowledge" or "understanding."

Theological Implications:
1 Corinthians 2:14 presents a stark contrast between the spiritual mindset of believers and nonbelievers. The "psychē aphtonos gennetos" refers to the natural man, whose soul is silent regarding spiritual matters. The term "aphtonos" implies that the natural man does not speak or express himself concerning spiritual realities.

Furthermore, the phrase "mē pō labein ta pneumatika" reveals that the natural man does not receive or take hold of spiritual things. He remains ignorant of spiritual truths, as indicated by the absence of epignosis, or true understanding.

Lastly, the verse states that the unintelligence of the natural man is evident in his inability to comprehend spiritual matters. The term "asyntetos" connotes a lack of intellectual capacity to fathom spiritual realities.

In summary, 1 Corinthians 2:14 portrays the fundamental distinction between the spiritual comprehension of believers and the ignorance of nonbelievers. Believers possess the ability to understand spiritual truths through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, while nonbelievers remain blind to such realities. This verse reinforces the importance of spiritual discernment and the indispensable role of the Holy Spirit in unlocking the mysteries of God's Word.

In Koine Greek, the term translated as "the natural man" in English is ψυχὴ ἀφωνοῦς γεννητῆς (psyche aphtonos genētēs)

Breaking down this expression:

ψυχή (psyche): Soul or life
ἀφωνός (aphtonos): Silent or unspoken
γέννητός (gennetos): Born or generated

Thus, "the natural man" refers to an individual who is born or generated in a state of silence regarding spiritual matters. Such a person does not possess the Holy Spirit and is incapable of understanding spiritual truths without divine revelation


Personally-I think your understanding of the "natural man" is flawed and @Cameron143 has a firm grasp and biblical understanding re "dead in trespasses and sins"
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Thank you,

But I do think he does not understand.


God is able to make the natural man understand, in fact, that is what the HS does when he was sent, to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment

A natural man may not be able to comprehend deep biblical truths. But he can with the help of God understand the gospel
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Notice, It said God to them to circumcise their hearts.

Thats what we do when the light goes on and we see our guilt and shame, and call out to Jesus.

We circumcise our hearts when we react to the message and recieve it with full assurance as the author of Hebrews says
Click to expand...


No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." Rom 2:29​


We experience the results of God's circumcision... Not do it.
 
Johann said:
Incorrect-

Extent of Payment: The Bible teaches that Christ's death on the cross was a complete and sufficient payment for all sin (1 John 2:2). This means that all sin, past, present, and future, has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Personally I think we need to be very careful of our words and what we say.
J.
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Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief.

If he did, everyone would be saved.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Thank you,

But I do think he does not understand.


God is able to make the natural man understand, in fact, that is what the HS does when he was sent, to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment

A natural man may not be able to comprehend deep biblical truths. But he can with the help of God understand the gospel
Click to expand...
I know he understand-



Ephesians 2:1: "You were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." This verse explains that believers were spiritually dead due to their sins but have been made alive through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11: "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." This verse describes how the Holy Spirit brings forth life in believers, both spiritually and potentially physically at the time of the resurrection.

John 6:63: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." This verse reinforces the idea that the Holy Spirit imparts life and spiritual vitality to believers.

1 Corinthians 15:45: "The first man Adam became a living being"; "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." This verse compares the first Adam, created as a physical being, with the second Adam, Jesus Christ, who provides spiritual life to believers.

These verses demonstrate that the Holy Spirit plays a critical role in making believers alive spiritually, thus answering the question regarding Scriptures on how a man is quickened by the Holy Spirit.
 
Cameron143 said:
I don't believe God rejects anyone, per se. I believe men fit themselves for destruction. It is God Himself who says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. That is the sovereign choice God makes.
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But God was talking about the nation of Israel there. Not induvidual people

The calvinistinterpretation of Rom 9 - 11 is also flawed. It is taken out of Context

Jesus told jerusalem how often he wanted (willed) to take them under his wing 9he spoke of the time he was in heaven before he came to earth) But they were unwilling

Gods will was they be saved.

They rejected Gods will..
 
Genez said:

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." Rom 2:29​


We experience the results of God's circumcision... Not do it.
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Yes, He circumcized (washed and made us clean)

but before he does this, we need to circumcise our hearts.

two different things
 
Johann said:
I know he understand-



Ephesians 2:1: "You were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." This verse explains that believers were spiritually dead due to their sins but have been made alive through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11: "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." This verse describes how the Holy Spirit brings forth life in believers, both spiritually and potentially physically at the time of the resurrection.

John 6:63: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." This verse reinforces the idea that the Holy Spirit imparts life and spiritual vitality to believers.

1 Corinthians 15:45: "The first man Adam became a living being"; "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." This verse compares the first Adam, created as a physical being, with the second Adam, Jesus Christ, who provides spiritual life to believers.

These verses demonstrate that the Holy Spirit plays a critical role in making believers alive spiritually, thus answering the question regarding Scriptures on how a man is quickened by the Holy Spirit.
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I disagree

if he did he would not deny the power of God to change the heart of any man, natural or spiritual,
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
He who does not believe is condemned already

Unbelief in God in the book of Hebrews is called a willful sin
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Correction it says he who believes in him is not condemned.

Do you understand to say to someone if you don't believe you are condemned is judging someone by your own law.

You need him to help you believe, and if for some reason you even you don't believe, his sword will condemn you.

Because when you not believing you are not walking in spirit,
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief.

If he did, everyone would be saved.
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Not so-


Your statement "Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief" is incorrect from a Christian theological perspective.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died for the sins of all humankind, including the sin of unbelief.

Firstly, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that Christ died for the sins of all people. 1 John 2:2 (ESV) states, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Similarly, Titus 2:14 (ESV) proclaims, "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

These verses indicate that Christ's death extends to cover the sins of everyone, including the sin of unbelief.

Secondly, the Bible teaches that unbelief itself is a form of sin. Hebrews 3:12 (ESV) warns against hardening one's heart toward God, stating, "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." Furthermore, Mark 16:16 (ESV) notes that those who do not believe in Christ will face judgment, indicating that unbelief is a sin deserving punishment.
Thirdly, the Bible reveals that Christ's death covers every kind of sin, even those committed unwillingly or ignorantly. Matthew 12:31-32 (ESV) states, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This passage shows that Christ's death covers all kinds of sins except for the deliberate rejection of the Holy Spirit.
 
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