Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

I can see that your powers of discernment are lacking. I'm not bothered in the least by anything you or anyone writes. I was simply making a point.
And I never said we get saved then believe. I said one must be regenerated before they will believe. One is saved when they believe. But they will not believe until they are quickened.
This actually is what scripture teaches. You can find it described in Ephesians 2:1-9. You can see it evidenced in Acts 2:37.

If by quickened you mean regeneration then what do you think regeneration is? That is your salvation from death, we are made spiritually alive. To say we are regenerated and then saved is to say we are saved and then saved. It makes no sense. It is believers in the Gospel God is making alive.

You are saying we get saved and then believe, you simply don't realise it.

 

[Mem]

Are we talking about saved or unsaved people? Saved people should know that to be absent from the body and present with the Lord is vastly superior to life on earth. Some unsaved individuals may believe death would be better, but in reality it is not even close. So I can believe there are those who believe it would be preferable. I suppose many of those who commit suicide feel this way. But I know it is far worse to lift up one's eyes in hell being in torment.

A rabbi explained the idiom "lift up one's eyes" to be meant the same as the moment a reality 'dawns on' a person. So, when used in the context of a parable, rather than an actual account, even if some believe it must be an actual account (but that might be because they need a more "solid" evidence of their position)...

...I don't want to get too far off topic...

just offering a particular reality that many might've missed bringing into consider.

 

[Cameron143]

A rabbi explained the idiom "lift up one's eyes" to be meant the same as the moment a reality 'dawns on' a person. So, when used in the context of a parable, rather than an actual account, even if some believe it must be an actual account (but that might be because they need a more "solid" evidence of their position)...

...I don't want to get too far off topic...

just offering a particular reality that many might've missed bringing into consider.

I appreciate your insight.

 

[Cameron143]

If by quickened you mean regeneration then what do you think regeneration is? That is your salvation from death, we are made spiritually alive. To say we are regenerated and then saved is to say we are saved and then saved. It makes no sense. It is believers in the Gospel God is making alive.

You are saying we get saved and then believe, you simply don't realise it.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying dead people can't respond to the gospel call. But when they are quickened they are given ears to hear and their eyes to see and understand and they believe the truth about their condition.
Can you read Acts 2:37 and tell me what has taken place?

 

[Nehemiah6]

But when they are quickened they are given ears to hear and their eyes to see and understand and they believe the truth about their condition.

The only way a sinner can be "quickened" (meaning that that person's spirit is brought to life) is if the Holy Spirit is first WITHIN that person. But the gift of the Holy Spirit is only given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So you are quite mistaken and unbiblical.

However that is the standard Calvinistic concept of how an "elect" person gets saved. They simply reverse what the Bible says and claim that a sinner is FIRST quickened and then believes. And this is only for the elect, since Christ died only for the elect (and ignored everyone else).

That is simply not the case and the Bible does not support such nonsense. Instead the Bible says that saving faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Kindly read and study Romans 10 (the entire chapter) for a proper understanding of this matter.

 

[Cameron143]

The only way a sinner can be "quickened" (meaning that that person's spirit is brought to life) is if the Holy Spirit is first WITHIN that person. But the gift of the Holy Spirit is only given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So you are quite mistaken and unbiblical.

However that is the standard Calvinistic concept of how an "elect" person gets saved. They simply reverse what the Bible says and claim that a sinner is FIRST quickened and then believes. And this is only for the elect, since Christ died only for the elect (and ignored everyone else).

That is simply not the case and the Bible does not support such nonsense. Instead the Bible says that saving faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Kindly read and study Romans 10 (the entire chapter) for a proper understanding of this matter.

The gift of the Holy Spirit or promise of the Father is experiential and outward and is given as a seal to believers. The indwelling of the Spirit is nonexperiential and must be present for quickening to occur. The first is spoken of in Ephesians 1:13. The latter is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is when we are placed into Christ.
If you are interested to do so, tell me what transpires in Acts 2:37 that leads to verse 38.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Why would it be unjust for someone to be more generous with their own resources than we, as finite human beings, might consider to be sufficient or fair? Why can't I, as a benefactor, pay to the justice system the penalty due a criminal's crimes, on the proviso that it only becomes credited to them if and when they eventually admit their fault and make a commitment to serve the king; and if they never do that, the system can do with my prepayment whatever they see fit?

In terms of justice in this life that might be possible. But Jesus alone can atone for sin. And that is the debt I'm referring to. And once justice has been satisfied by the debt being paid and accepted, it is not just in my estimation to require further payment.

Why do you believe justice is satisfied merely by the debt being paid and accepted? if the debt is paid with provisos and the court sets aside the debt payers' provisos, how is that a just application of the debt payment?

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying dead people can't respond to the gospel call. But when they are quickened they are given ears to hear and their eyes to see and understand and they believe the truth about their condition.
Can you read Acts 2:37 and tell me what has taken place?

The lost have ears. I see them on almost everyone. And the lost can hear. I talk to lost people often, and they hear fine.
The lost can hear the gospel and understand it and reject it; or hear the gospel and understand it and accept it; or hear the gospel and misunderstand it, and reject it; or hear a mangled misrepresentation of the gospel and accept that; or hear a mangled misrepresentation of the gospel and reject that. But one thing is clear, they do have ears to hear with.

 

[PaulThomson]

The gift of the Holy Spirit or promise of the Father is experiential and outward and is given as a seal to believers. The indwelling of the Spirit is nonexperiential and must be present for quickening to occur. The first is spoken of in Ephesians 1:13. The latter is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is when we are placed into Christ.

IMO You have the explanations of the gift and the indwelling completely backwards. Those who have not the Spirit are none of His. If the Holy Spirit is indwelling, the person experiences victory. Rom. 8

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As if dead people can choose life without the power of God making them alive first. Got it.

So God is powerless to help them understand the things of God? As he said he did. And this is why they have no excuse?

God can not make a person alive UNTIL the penalty of sin is removed, Justification MUST come first. And that is by Grace through faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There's nothing about Christ going down to paradise in that passage.

Amen, And nothing about all the dead before christ being raised..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So where, where saints sleeping, before they where raised to life

Was king david raised at that time? How about Abraham?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are you under the delusion that dead people have free will?

Physically dead people? No it is to late for them.

Spiritually dead people? They better have free will. Or they can never chose to recieve christ or deny him.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross tonight you will join me in paradise.

Think about this.

Why should the thief go straight to heaven when the saints where waiting to be resurrected.

He must have been talking about the place where the saints where, the ones who came out of the tomb stone.

Why should the spirit of Jesus not already be in paradise, before he died on the cross


God is everywhere.

When you understand this, it unlocks the whole bible, my super duper friend.

And it shows you you can be saved by faith before being saved by salvation.

No one has been ressurected yet (to their future spiritual body) that will come when Christ returns.

They are all in paradise today waiting for that day.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Exactly. Dead people cannot choose anything. However, Nehemiah thinks anyone who says so is making making too big a deal about the state of the natural man and is thinking like a natural man, which means he rejects what Scripture says on the matter.

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

God does not have to make you alive to call them
Read the whole of CHapter 6

36. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will,but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No. But he can keep choosing death.

Wrong

If he can’t chose life. Then no one can be saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Man is spiritually dead by default. De fault of Adam.

Yes

As jesus said, in adam all die. Even so in christ May ALL be made alive

the possibility is given to all..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

how would he know the difference if he's spiritually dead, how does a spiritually dead person know he's dead, according to scripture he's capable of believing He's God.

I am prety sure the tax collector came to the understanding of how dead he was when he got on his knee and cried out for Gods mercy.

He became poor in spirit, and entered the kingdom of God. Through Grace as God adopted him as his son and made him alive based on being justified

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He's capable of knowing God exists. He's not capable of understanding his estate before God or his need of salvation; and neither will He seek after God.

Then again, no one can be saved

Because it is required that we recieve him to become a child of God (John 1)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

which is why God would have to move him,.or else nobody.would be saved.

Do you see the predestination part here.

No,

I see God reveals himself in many ways, In nature, In the universe, In his people. I also see God knowing who will react to his message and making sure he gets the the word, and help they need to make the decision. But I also know he helps people who sadly he knows will never Recieve him also (see israel)