Teaching Obedience to the Law Unmasked: Neo-Judaism in the Church

[Nehemiah6]

Unmasking neo-judaism are terrifying words for millions of people.

There is nothing "neo" about Judaism. It has been around for over 2,000 years. The thing which is of interest to Christians is that many Orthodox (and non-Orthodox) Jews are turning to Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ) for salvation, These are the Messianic Jews.

 

[Inquisitor]

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[Soyeong]

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang """all the law""" and the prophets.

Indeed, all of the law and the prophet hang on the greatest two commandments because everything commanded in them is an example of how to correctly love God and our neighbor, so it is contradictory to think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, but not the commandments that hang on them.

 

[Soyeong]

Neo-Judaism is like you state, the recurrence of Judaisers in the church. In the early church, they were easy to identify because of their big push for circumcision. Because Paul wrote Galatians condemning Judaisers and circumcision as a methodology for trying to keep the law, Judaisers are a bit craftier these days, telling people they need other works to be saved, like getting baptised, or tithing, or keeping the Sabbath, or refraining from certain foods/drinks etc. These things aren't necessarily bad by themselves (and some are good), but we can never be saved by works, and anyone that adds works as a requirement to the salvation found in Christ alone is preaching a false gospel.

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US and Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after they Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3). In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcise in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. Things said against obeying what God has commanded for incorrect reasons should not be mistaken as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved.

Furthermore, in Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed. In Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17, they all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel. Paul also also proclaimed Gospel of the Kingdom by trying to convince people about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets (Acts 14:21-22, 19:8-9, 20:24-25, 28:23, 28:31), so he was on the same page about repenting from our disobedience to the Law of Moses.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it in accordance with believing the Gospel of the Kingdom. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so obedience to him is a requirement for salvation, which is not something other than salvation in him alone.

 

[tylerbones1313]

There is nothing "neo" about Judaism. It has been around for over 2,000 years. The thing which is of interest to Christians is that many Orthodox (and non-Orthodox) Jews are turning to Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ) for salvation, These are the Messianic Jews.

we need to keep in mind that the bible speak of Judaism (Jews) being partially blind to the truth until the "fullness of the Gentiles" a future event.


Romans 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:25 is a complex verse.

Context: This verse is part of Romans 11, where Paul explores God's plan for Israel and the Gentiles. He argues that God's faithfulness to his promises extends to both groups despite Israel's rejection of Jesus.

Key components:

• Mystery: Paul refers to God's plan as a "mystery," something not fully understood by humans but revealed in scripture.
• Blindness in part: This refers to the spiritual blindness of a portion of Israel, meaning not the entire nation. They have not recognized Jesus as the Messiah.
• Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in: This suggests a temporary situation where God's focus is on bringing the Gentiles to faith in Christ.

Interpretations:

1. Partial hardening: Some interpret this as a temporary hardening of Israel's hearts by God to allow for the Gentiles' salvation. It's seen as a loving act, preparing Israel for a future acceptance of Christ.
2. Fulfillment of prophecy: This interpretation sees the "blindness" as fulfilling Old Testament prophecies about Israel's temporary rejection of God. Their hearts will eventually be softened, leading to their salvation.
3. Continuing unbelief: Some interpret this as describing a continued unbelief in Israel until the end times, when all will be saved. However, this contradicts other verses affirming God's future restoration of Israel.

Considerations:

• The meaning of "fulness of the Gentiles" is debated. Some interpret it as the complete number of Gentiles destined for salvation, while others see it as a significant number witnessing God's grace before Israel's restoration.
• The verse emphasizes God's sovereign plan and his faithfulness to his promises to both Israel and the Gentiles.
• It doesn't necessarily imply a superiority of the Gentiles over Israel or a permanent separation between the two groups.

Conclusion

Romans 11:25 offers a complex perspective on God's relationship with Israel and the Gentiles. While interpretations vary, the key message is that God's plan encompasses both groups and ultimately leads to salvation for all who believe.

It's important to remember that this interpretation is just one approach. Consulting different sources and perspectives can help you form your own understanding of this verse and its meaning in the context of Christian theology.

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God, which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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[jamessb]

Romans 11:25-27...

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Indeed, all of the law and the prophet hang on the greatest two commandments because everything commanded in them is an example of how to correctly love God and our neighbor, so it is contradictory to think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, but not the commandments that hang on them.

Jesus did not say that. He said to only obey these 2. I guess from your response you just "choose to reject" the words of Jesus.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus did not say that. He said to only obey these 2. I guess from your response you just "choose to reject" the words of Jesus.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only commands that we should obey, but about which was the greatest commandment, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that we should still obey. If someone who loves God and their neighbor won’t commit rape for example, then it is missing his point to think that we just need to obey the greatest two commandments and not the command against rape, and so forth for the rest of the commandment that hang on them. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so that doesn’t leave room for interpreting Jesus as saying that we just need to love and can be lawless to the rest of God’s commands for how to love. I do not reject the words of Jesus, but only your misinterpretation of them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Indeed, all of the law and the prophet hang on the greatest two commandments because everything commanded in them is an example of how to correctly love God and our neighbor, so it is contradictory to think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, but not the commandments that hang on them.

“everything commanded in them is an example of how to correctly love God and our neighbor, “

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:53‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD ( beware and obey him : my name is in him ) commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“vail is done away in Christ. “

moses words in the law

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

taking equal revenge is not love it’s justice when there’s no mercy to be had God said this instead the contrary when he came this is how love responds to an offense not what Moses taught what Jesus taught

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: ( the law )

but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven the gospel ) for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39, 44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t obey what Moses taught us and what Jesus taught us they are contrary

moses taught show no pity , take equal revenge for an offense Jesus said no don’t be like that give mercy always and forgive offenses pardon and restore the sinners

moses said put the other sinners to death you must put the evil sinner away Jesus said don’t do that forgive and restore the sinner instead and repent and put the evil away from your own self

Moses said divorce your wife if you’re unhappy and you may both remarry Jesus said no that’s adultery don’t do that listen to me instead …

It’s contrary one of for these folks

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

for this purpose which shows who it’s for and why

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What can we do when we’ve become guilty and been made aware that we’re sinners and we’re going to perish ? It’s only then th at someone wouod accept Jesus who came to suffer and die for thier sins so they can be saved if the law hadn’t declared everyone sinners they wouldn’t know the need for repentance and remission of thier sins the doctrine sent to us

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.( this only works if the world is made guilty and aware of sin first otherwise what’s sin ? And why am I a sinner what did I do ?) And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law is of God it’s just not the law of Christian’s it is a prerequisite to the gospel which is Gods word of life and salvation the answer to the determination of the law that all are guilty and will perish , is the gospel that says anyone who repents and believes the gospel will be saved from that condemnation upon all sinners

the law doesn’t teach us how to love it teaches sinners who won’t repent what it is like without Christ

 

[Moses_Young]

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US and Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after they Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3).

Obviously, it's the former, right? Which is why I also mentioned baptism, Sabbath, tithing, foods etc. Can be good things, provided we're not trying to earn our salvation with them.

In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcise in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. Things said against obeying what God has commanded for incorrect reasons should not be mistaken as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

I don't know that it was just an incorrect reason. It was for a damnable reason - trying to earn one's salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Obviously, it's the former, right? Which is why I also mentioned baptism, Sabbath, tithing, foods etc. Can be good things, provided we're not trying to earn our salvation with them.

I don't know that it was just an incorrect reason. It was for a damnable reason - trying to earn one's salvation.

Agreed, though the point is that they were not speaking against circumcision for the purposes for which God commanded it, for example, in Genesis 12:48, it requires a Gentile to become circumcised in order to eat of the Passover lamb. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present that requires our ongoing participation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present, which requires our participation. So the gift of salvation requires us to be doers of God's law not as a prerequisite, but because that is intrinsically part of what it is.

 

[jamessb]

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US and Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after they Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3). In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcise in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. Things said against obeying what God has commanded for incorrect reasons should not be mistaken as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved.

Furthermore, in Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed. In Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17, they all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel. Paul also also proclaimed Gospel of the Kingdom by trying to convince people about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets (Acts 14:21-22, 19:8-9, 20:24-25, 28:23, 28:31), so he was on the same page about repenting from our disobedience to the Law of Moses.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it in accordance with believing the Gospel of the Kingdom. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so obedience to him is a requirement for salvation, which is not something other than salvation in him alone.

Timothy, Paul's companion, was circumcised by Paul (in Acts 16), even though his mother wasn't a Jew. Why did that happen?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Agreed, though the point is that they were not speaking against circumcision for the purposes for which God commanded it, for example, in Genesis 12:48, it requires a Gentile to become circumcised in order to eat of the Passover lamb. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present that requires our ongoing participation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present, which requires our participation. So the gift of salvation requires us to be doers of God's law not as a prerequisite, but because that is intrinsically part of what it is.

“So the gift of salvation requires us to be doers of God's law not as a prerequisite, but because that is intrinsically part of what it is”

Your looking at the wrong law

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ( this is your position )

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

…Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

(….long doscussion reaching a conclusion )forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 10, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s hard to not divorce but divorce to show no mercy but always show mercy to stone other sinners yet also forgive them and do no harm to them it’s hard to judge and accuse others for everything you notice also judge not condemn not forgive always it’s hard to take an eye for an eye vengeance and also turn the other cheek

you should compare the things jesus taught with the things Moses taught and you’ll find out they are contrary

 

[Moses_Young]

Timothy, Paul's companion, was circumcised by Paul (in Acts 16), even though his mother wasn't a Jew. Why did that happen?

His mother was a Jewess. Lol. That's a female Jew. That's why Paul circumcised him. Probably Eunice never studied to be a mohelet, and was worried to learn by starting with her son? Eunice's husband was a Greek, so presumably didn't understand the importance of circumcision?

 

[mailmandan]

What I'd like to know is how and why so many people seem to be getting sucked into the Judaizer trap. Do they just not know the scriptures, or not understand? Judaizers make some pretty convincing arguments and I suspect people who are immature in their faith fall for it. People need to know this isn't just another sect of Christianity but a cult. Paul said in Galatians 5:4 that those who attempt to be justified by law are estranged from Christ. So you can't claim to be a disciple of Christ and at the same time try to observe the law; it's one or the other.

There seems to be a massive presence of Judaizers online. Are their numbers actually increasing or do they just all hang out online?

I run across modern day Judaizers all the time on Christian Chat and on other Christian forum sites as well. Some of them have even become quite the masters of deception. Many of them come across to me as self-promoters who wish to exalt themselves as "holier than thou." Such folks can learn a valuable lesson from the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[jamessb]

His mother was a Jewess. Lol. That's a female Jew. That's why Paul circumcised him. Probably Eunice never studied to be a mohelet, and was worried to learn by starting with her son? Eunice's husband was a Greek, so presumably didn't understand the importance of circumcision?

My mistake. I meant to say that Timothy's mother was a Jew.

 

[Moses_Young]

My mistake. I meant to say that Timothy's mother was a Jew.

As a Jew, she was supposed to have all the males in her household circumcised...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

His mother was a Jewess. Lol. That's a female Jew. That's why Paul circumcised him. Probably Eunice never studied to be a mohelet, and was worried to learn by starting with her son? Eunice's husband was a Greek, so presumably didn't understand the importance of circumcision?

It was for Timothy’s safety because he was among the Jews remember who not was persecuting the church early on trying to kill Christian’s

“Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Jews wouldnt accept a Greek unless he was a convert through circumcision remember who was trying to kill Paul and the apostles

 

[Soyeong]

I run across modern day Judaizers all the time on Christian Chat and on other Christian forum sites as well. Some of them have even become quite the masters of deception. Many of them come across to me as self-promoters who wish to exalt themselves as "holier than thou." Such folks can learn a valuable lesson from the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

Really? I’ve never seen anyone argue that Gentiles need to become circumcised in order to become saved. The Bible never treats holiness as a negative thing.

 

[mailmandan]

Really? I’ve never seen anyone argue that Gentiles need to become circumcised in order to become saved. The Bible never treats holiness as a negative thing.

"Modern day" Judaizers who place an emphasis on salvation by faith + obeying the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment).