Contextual study

[Thunderrr-mental]

Salvation happens the moment someone places their faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and receiving eternal life. Almost the entire book of John says this.

Also...baptism after death? Where is that in scripture?

I haven't got some things quite right but baptism I've never seen after death in scripture.

I think you are mixing up temporal deliverance with eternal deliverance

that's your view.

This is why your so quick to reject so many teachings.

Salvation and being saved are two separate events.

Salvation is not complete until being saved is complete

We can argue all night long on this one. But don't get all heavy handed on me.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Salvation happens the moment someone places their faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and receiving eternal life. Almost the entire book of John says this.

Also...baptism after death? Where is that in scripture?

I haven't got some things quite right but baptism I've never seen after death in scripture.

I think you are mixing up temporal deliverance with eternal deliverance

a person can confess Jesus is lord whilst living in sin, and still carry on in sin the next day.

Even the demons confessed Jesus is lord.

The demons said son of God what do you want from us before are time.

 

[wattie]

a person can confess Jesus is lord whilst living in sin, and still carry on in sin the next day.

Even the demons confessed Jesus is lord.

The demons said son of God what do you want from us before are time.

The demons knew OF God. They knew God existed. They obviously hadn't entrusted their salvation with him.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The demons knew OF God. They knew God existed. They obviously hadn't entrusted their salvation with him.

sure and what about those people who confess Jesus is lord with a demon inside them.

 

[Romans34]

The demons knew OF God. They knew God existed. They obviously hadn't entrusted their salvation with him.

I would say more accurately, the demons know God very well. They exist in the same realm. They just don't know Him as Saviour. But then, they cannot be saved because redemption wasn't offered to them.

 

[wattie]

sure and what about those people who confess Jesus is lord with a demon inside them.

A demon inside them? Well.. if they had that.. they would never have been saved in the first place.. because a demon cannot co-habitat with the Holy Spirit, who indwells a believer at salvation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

A demon inside them? Well.. if they had that.. they would never have been saved in the first place.. because a demon cannot co-habitat with the Holy Spirit, who indwells a believer at salvation.

ok so now where getting somewhere.

A person without a demon confessing Jesus is lord whilst sinning that very same day
and sinning the next day,.

How can he receive salvation straight away.


Because in comparison demons sin everyday to.

 

[PaulThomson]

Another passage that we quote alot is James 2 'faith without works is dead'

Most of the time, though we don't read the surrounding verses.

James 2:14-22 KJVS - 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You can see the subject of this passage is about using the faith you already have for God's profit.

Eternal salvation is not the subject.

Many use one verse alone in this passage and attach it to Eternal salvation, when it is about daily faith..not conversion.

OR we could say that this is about justifying to those around us our claims of having faith in God. If our works do not match our profession, people will be right to disbelieve that we truly have faith. Abraham's household knew he had faith in God because Abraham acted in accordance with his profession.

 

[wattie]

ok so now where getting somewhere.

A person without a demon confessing Jesus is lord whilst sinning that very same day
and sinning the next day,.

How can he receive salvation straight away.


Because in comparison demons sin everyday to.

Conversion is sincere.. from conviction on the soul. So.. it would be unlikely they would continue in habitual sin, because of the conviction on their soul of that sin. There will be fruit from someone being converted. But the conversion is instant. The thief on the cross did not have to wait. People were baptised in the NT very soon after profession of faith.

But there is these verses:

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice: Jesus NEVER knew them.. not that they were converted and lost conversion.

The other thing to notice is: what is the will of the Father?

(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So.. doing the will of the Father is firstly to believe on Jesus for salvation.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Verse 19 is a situational context; but verse 20 is a constant that provides for that context- and is independent of that context. For example:

0) If I ever need to get from one end of town to the other
1) I can drive a car or truck on a public road,
2) For, I have a license to operate a motor vehicle.

The subject is me driving around; but "I have a license to operate a motor vehicle" is still true whether I am actually driving around or eating a bowl of ice cream while skydiving.

 

[wattie]

Verse 19 is a situational context; but verse 20 is a constant that provides for that context- and is independent of that context. For example:

0) If I ever need to get from one end of town to the other
1) I can drive a car or truck on a public road,
2) For, I have a license to operate a motor vehicle.

The subject is me driving around; but "I have a license to operate a motor vehicle" is still true whether I am actually driving around or eating a bowl of ice cream while skydiving.

Yeah there is other application of the verse in Matthew 18. Such as the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of the congregation at a church service. But the primary application isn't christians gathered anywhere for any purpose- but dealing with a sinning brother.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Conversion is sincere.. from conviction on the soul. So.. it would be unlikely they would continue in habitual sin, because of the conviction on their soul of that sin. There will be fruit from someone being converted. But the conversion is instant. The thief on the cross did not have to wait. People were baptised in the NT very soon after profession of faith.

But there is these verses:

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice: Jesus NEVER knew them.. not that they were converted and lost conversion.

The other thing to notice is: what is the will of the Father?

(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So.. doing the will of the Father is firstly to believe on Jesus for salvation.

A person is incapable of believing on the will of the father before the first seed is planted

Do all people who say they are saved automatically have self control.

according to the fruits of the spirit which I see as seed's, self control is the last seed.

according to the bible the angels in heaven where booted out because they lost there self control.

With this sentiment would it be possible salvation is not given until self-control has been refined by the other seeds of the spirit.

but at the same time your still saved up until this point, because the first seed as bloomed into other seeds, before they bloomed into self-control.

along the process God is working with you, through his Good will (grace).to save you, where by your personal walk with God, the seed of faith, by which you where first saved by, blooms into self control, where by then then stamp of approval, is given called salvation.

but before any of this happens you must be baptised.

obviously this is for the living,.and the word of God is for living.

So you then could say well what if i die before this happens,


well no because the word of God is for the living.

what happens when you die, is of no concern, because your dead.

and Jesus can raise the dead.

 

[wattie]

Another scripture that people often come to the wrong conclusion on is in Hebrews 6,

(Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(Heb 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

On their own, these verses miss some primary context.

Preceding context:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Context at the end of Hebrews 5:

(Heb 5:11) Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
(Heb 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So.. who is it being addressed in Hebrews 6? Same as in Hebrews 5.. .

Hebrew believers.

What is the subject? Going on to maturity in the faith. Leaving elementary teachings to go from being a babe in Christ to mature.

So in Hebrews 6-- those once enlightened.. tasted the heavenly gift etc... ARE SAVED. It is not about people 'never saved in the first place' The context is of babes in Christ who need to go on in their faith-- leaving the elementary principles.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Another scripture that people often come to the wrong conclusion on is in Hebrews 6,

(Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(Heb 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

On their own, these verses miss some primary context.

Preceding context:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Context at the end of Hebrews 5:

(Heb 5:11) Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
(Heb 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So.. who is it being addressed in Hebrews 6? Same as in Hebrews 5.. .

Hebrew believers.

What is the subject? Going on to maturity in the faith. Leaving elementary teachings to go from being a babe in Christ to mature.

So in Hebrews 6-- those once enlightened.. tasted the heavenly gift etc... ARE SAVED. It is not about people 'never saved in the first place' The context is of babes in Christ who need to go on in their faith-- leaving the elementary principles.

Hebrews is preached by priests (hebrews who where saved)

They where preaching against useless rituals, like animal sacrifice.

The hebrews high priests where talking amongst each other about the Jews, in hebrews 6, who where going back to to useless rituals.

You do understand this,. I take it.

 

[jamessb]

Another passage that we quote alot is James 2 'faith without works is dead'

Most of the time, though we don't read the surrounding verses.

James 2:14-22 KJVS - 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You can see the subject of this passage is about using the faith you already have for God's profit.

Eternal salvation is not the subject.

Many use one verse alone in this passage and attach it to Eternal salvation, when it is about daily faith..not conversion.

This problem is often caused because the KJV and other translations chop up the text into separate verses. The division of the Bible into chapters is attributed to Stephen Langton, a 13th-century Archbishop of Canterbury. Verses, however, were a later addition, primarily credited to Robert Estienne, a 16th-century French printer. They are useful as references to locate parts of Scripture, but they disrupt the flow of the narrative when it is divided into separate verses.

Most modern translations, for example, the NET and the NIV, do not make this division. They are easier to read and discourage people from taking verses out of context and distort their meaning.

Here is James 2:14-22 in the NIV: (verse numbers removed)...

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[jamessb]

I believe faith without works is dead, because your faith becomes dead works, if you don't practice what you preach.

But I'm sure it doesn't mean you faith is dead completely, it just means your faith has become dead works and needs restoring.

Suppose a person is a believer but for some reason is unable to perform "works". Does that mean that her/his faith is dead?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Suppose a person is a believer but for some reason is unable to perform "works". Does that mean that her/his faith is dead?

obviously your missing my point, the point im making, is your faith does not become dead, as in dead and buried.

The scripture is warming you faith can become dead works.

Its like oiling an engine, if you don't change it, it starts to lack performance.

So the contex is key here, when we read the scripture that says a faith without works is dead.

It is more than likely meaning it's a faith lacking performances.

Because obviously people take longer to achieve self control than others.

That my friend is a fact.

You can't read scripture on the bases that every word you read is directed at you specifically or everybody or as a personal insult, that's unwise.

You take heed and warning, and look to the lord, as most scriptures is aimed pacifically at individuals in different points of walks of there life.

At what this scripture could be given To you, is dependant on how well you are conforming.

Take Jesus as an example it took him a whole year to train his disciples, it would be ridiculous for anyone to believe, they can know it all within the first years, when those disciples, where with the lord everyday.

How many minutes a day do you actually spend with the lord.

How long do spend in your heart each day,

Are you holding on or holding of.

 

[wattie]

Hebrews is preached by priests (hebrews who where saved)

They where preaching against useless rituals, like animal sacrifice.

The hebrews high priests where talking amongst each other about the Jews, in hebrews 6, who where going back to to useless rituals.

You do understand this,. I take it.

Yes.. Hebrew believers, going back to old ways.. the sacrifices etc.. treating Jesus' one sacrifice as something to be trodden under foot. Hebrews 10 shows this also with there being 'no more sacrifice for sins'. This sacrifice is animal sacrifice.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yes.. Hebrew believers, going back to old ways.. the sacrifices etc.. treating Jesus' one sacrifice as something to be trodden under foot. Hebrews 10 shows this also with there being 'no more sacrifice for sins'. This sacrifice is animal sacrifice.

No not hebrews, more.like the jews, who where rejecting the lord.

The Hebrews have accepted the lord,.I take it you know there is a difference between a Hebrew and a Jew.

 

[wattie]

No not hebrews, more.like the jews, who where rejecting the lord.

The Hebrews have accepted the lord,.I take it you know there is a difference between a Hebrew and a Jew.

I do.. but the fact remains the context leading up to Hebrews 6 is of believers who are being admonished to go on to maturity. So whether Hebrew or Jew.. they were babes in Christ.