Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#1,061
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#1,061
Everlasting-Grace said:
No

I did not get baptised to be saved, I got baptised because I was saved

if you say water baptis is required to be saved, thats blasphemy
Click to expand...
well you say that's how it was for you.

But in Wales people would say differently where I speak to pastors directly, they all say differently.

You cant be saved untill your resurrected in Christ.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#1,062
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
1,854
113
#1,062
Thunderrr-mental said:
making a choice has nothing to do with free will.

You make a choice to stop your children behaving wrongly with the wrong free will
Click to expand...
You have to have free will to do that

You can always just ignore your children and let them do whatever they want

In fact many parents do this
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#1,063
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#1,063
Everlasting-Grace said:
You have to have free will to do that

You can always just ignore your children and let them do whatever they want

In fact many parents do this
Click to expand...
a feeding of choice to stop your children behaving badly is ridiculous. And you know it.

The choice comes from knowing right and wrong.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#1,064
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
1,854
113
#1,064
Thunderrr-mental said:
well you say that's how it was for you.

But in Wales people would say differently where I speak to pastors directly, they all say differently.

You cant be saved untill your resurrected in Christ.
Click to expand...
Eph 2: And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Col 2: 12 - buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Himthrough faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

I was ressurected to life.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#1,065
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
1,854
113
#1,065
Thunderrr-mental said:
a feeding of choice to stop your children behaving badly is ridiculous. And you know it.

The choice comes from knowing right and wrong.
Click to expand...
Lol

You just proved me right

You have free will to chose right or wrong

Thank you

Remember, a fatalist says you can not chose good.. because your dead
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#1,066
Mar 1, 2022
18,973
6,526
113
62
#1,066
Thunderrr-mental said:
You yourself believe people Where saved in the old testament.

And yet we don't see many accounts where by a prophet as said directly to a person like Saul, the Holy spirit will change you personally

So on what grounds are you saying the people where saved in the old testament.

Prophets, priests, the Israelites the hebrews,

Jesus going down to paradise and raising the dead who has been obedient.

People who had a protective hedge put around them.

But yet I can't think of one of those account where by they where told the holy spirit will change them personally.

I think the issue here is you believe you receive salvation the moment you believe Jesus is lord.

Where as I believe because.of.hundreds of scriptures you've only just started to be saved at that point.

And honestly Cameron when you look at how many people say the things they do, have they really received salvation upon first belief.
Click to expand...
Salvation has always been the same...by grace through faith. So yes, I believe OT saints were saved. But salvation is an internal matter that manifests in outward reality. The falling of the Spirit is an external experience that accompany salvation, but is not limited to it. We generally make such an association because we find this to be the case throughout the book of Acts. But all these events are after the cross when the promise of the Father was given...the outpouring of the Holy Spirit promised in Joel 2:28. Before that time, the Spirit is often spoken of in terms of sprinkling. Thus, when God acted in the OT you often find the Spirit coming upon a person for a particular purpose. I believe this is the case with Saul.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#1,067
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#1,067
Everlasting-Grace said:
Lol

You just proved me right

You have free will to chose right or wrong

Thank you

Remember, a fatalist says you can not chose good.. because your dead
Click to expand...
theres no lol about it. When you first believe in Christ, you make a choice based on right and wrong, not free will.

After first belief you then have to learn all the rights wrongs of what Christs teaches.

If you know what's right you accept it out of choice, and not free will.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#1,069
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
1,854
113
#1,069
Thunderrr-mental said:
theres no lol about it. When you first believe in Christ, you make a choice based on right and wrong, not free will.

After first belief you then have to learn all the rights wrongs of what Christs teaches.

If you know what's right you accept it out of choice, and not free will.
Click to expand...
Whatever,,

The gentiles, who did not have god. Understood the law and how to do right and wrong.

You chose in free will.. Ifg you have no free will YOU CAN NOT CHOSE. PERIOD!
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#1,070
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
1,854
113
#1,070
Cameron143 said:
Interesting. So when you go on vacation, are you in anyway limited by the amount of money you have?
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with free will?

Can I get a credit card and go in debt?? Can I take a loan? Can I steal what I want?

You have free will to do whatever you want.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#1,071
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#1,071
Cameron143 said:
Salvation has always been the same...by grace through faith. So yes, I believe OT saints were saved. But salvation is an internal matter that manifests in outward reality. The falling of the Spirit is an external experience that accompany salvation, but is not limited to it. We generally make such an association because we find this to be the case throughout the book of Acts. But all these events are after the cross when the promise of the Father was given...the outpouring of the Holy Spirit promised in Joel 2:28. Before that time, the Spirit is often spoken of in terms of sprinkling. Thus, when God acted in the OT you often find the Spirit coming upon a person for a particular purpose. I believe this is the case with Saul.
Click to expand...
I understand your dilemma, and seeing as you are my friend and you are kind in disagreement. I will make the effort with you, regardless of our disagreement.


1 Samuel 10:6

New International Version



6 The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

It's quite clearly says Saul will be Change into a different person by the spirit.

a person means there whole being.

It does not say I will change you just for one purpose Cameron.

Since when does the holy spirit change a person for a promise outside of the kingdom.

Come in Cameron your saying the spirit uses people here,

Do you realise what your saying
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#1,072
Mar 1, 2022
18,973
6,526
113
62
#1,072
sawdust said:
Bit testy aren't we?

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. You don't get saved and then believe the Gospel.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

You want to take a scriptural point of view then try lining up your thinking with scripture. ;)

Believing the Gospel is what saves you because this is what God has determined to do.

We are not saying the same thing. I don't give a hoot whether you want to call it Calvin, Reformed or pigs can fly ... the notion that we are made alive before we can believe the Gospel is a notion that follows that school of thought and is not biblical.
Click to expand...
I can see that your powers of discernment are lacking. I'm not bothered in the least by anything you or anyone writes. I was simply making a point.
And I never said we get saved then believe. I said one must be regenerated before they will believe. One is saved when they believe. But they will not believe until they are quickened.
This actually is what scripture teaches. You can find it described in Ephesians 2:1-9. You can see it evidenced in Acts 2:37.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#1,074
Mar 1, 2022
18,973
6,526
113
62
#1,074
Everlasting-Grace said:
This again is nonsensical.

God is the one who draws us, and teaches us, The HS helps us understand, he does nto need to go against his own justice and make a dead person who is dead due to the penalty of sin and make them alive to teach them his gospel.

and he will not make them alive until the penalty of sin is removed.
Click to expand...
When is the penalty of sin removed?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#1,077
Mar 1, 2022
18,973
6,526
113
62
#1,077
Everlasting-Grace said:
When you are justified or declared righteous, (BY FAITH)
Click to expand...
There was only one day in history when sins were paid for. When you believed you were merely informed about what happened that day, and the results were imputed to you.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#1,080
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#1,080
Cameron143 said:
There was only one day in history when sins were paid for. When you believed you were merely informed about what happened that day, and the results were imputed to you.
Click to expand...
Dont you have to repent of any personal sins to Jesus before you can be saved, or settle any outstanding habitual sin before you can be saved.

Do you understand a person can be living in sin when they confess Jesus is lord
 
You must log in or register to reply here.