the Sabbath

[mailmandan]

I was raised as a catholic, in the province of Quebec, I totally disagree with most of their teachings, they are idolaters and place importance on the ritual instead of loving their neighbours, most but not all are liars and thieves who prey on the week and elderly. I am not certain what they teach today however as I have abandoned their way a long time ago when I started to read the Bible myself.

I too was raised as a Roman Catholic who was taught that salvation is by faith AND works. It was not until I placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) that the blinders were finally removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and I truly came to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) Praise God!

It never ceases to amaze me how those who teach salvation by works remain in denial that they do teach salvation by works. It's all smoke and mirrors. I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." Then afterward, that same Roman Catholic also denied that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic contradicted himself and misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as, "Saved by grace through faith "infused" with works." This article below further exposes their error.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (justforcatholics.org)

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Slight correction needed.

You said:

Corrected: When we are living for Jesus we are keeping His commandments which are love and faith! (1 John 3:23)

Love and faith is though Jesus,, but also is love and faith.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I too was raised as a Roman Catholic who was taught that salvation is by faith AND works. It was not until I placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) that the blinders were finally removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and I truly came to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) Praise God!

It never ceases to amaze me how those who teach salvation by works remain in denial that they do teach salvation by works. It's all smoke and mirrors. I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." Then afterward, that same Roman Catholic also denied that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic contradicted himself and misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as, "Saved by grace through faith "infused" with works." This article below further exposes their error.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (justforcatholics.org)

We are saved by grace through faith of Jesus alone. Those with faith keep God's law. Its the faith that saves us through the blood of Jesus, keeping God's law is a result of Christ's salvation in us. Rev 14:12.

We all deserve the death penalty because all has sinned, so the law can't save us, it just reveals our condition and so we rely on God's righteousness, not our own Psa 119:172. A righteous man will turn to Jesus for repentance and cleansing.

 

[Johann]

Slight correction needed.

You said:

Corrected: When we are living for Jesus we are keeping His commandments which are love and faith! (1 John 3:23)

The commandments of Jesus, as outlined in the Bible, emphasize love, faith, and obedience to God. Here are the commandments of Jesus along with their corresponding Scripture references:
Love God and keep His commandments:

John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Love one another:

1 John 5:3 - "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

Uphold faith and obedience:

By following these commandments of Jesus with love, faith, and obedience, believers demonstrate their devotion to God and fulfill His will in their lives.


The commandments of Jesus encompass various teachings emphasizing love, faith, obedience, and discipleship. Here are some of the commandments of Jesus along with their corresponding Scripture references:
Repentance and following Jesus:

Matthew 4:17 - "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Matthew 4:19 - "Come and follow Me."

Love and obedience:
John 14:15 - "If you love me, keep my commandments."

John 13:34 - "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another just as I have loved you; you also are to love one another."

Discipleship and service:
Matthew 28:19-20 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

Luke 9:23-24 - "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."

Other teachings:
Matthew 5:11-12 - "Rejoice when you're persecuted in My name."

Matthew 5:16 - "Let your light shine before all people."
These commandments reflect Jesus' teachings on love, repentance, discipleship, service, and obedience to God. By following these commandments, believers demonstrate their commitment to living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
J.

 

[mailmandan]

We are saved by grace through faith of Jesus alone. Those with faith keep God's law. Its the faith that saves us through the blood of Jesus, keeping God's law is a result of Christ's salvation in us. Rev 14:12.

We all deserve the death penalty because all has sinned, so the law can't save us, it just reveals our condition and so we rely on God's righteousness, not our own Psa 119:172.

Describe what it means to by "saved by grace through faith of Jesus alone." Also, define the word "keep."

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Describe what it means to by "saved by grace through faith of Jesus alone." Also, define the word "keep."

Sure, will do so later this afternoon when I have more time.

 

[mailmandan]

Sure, will do so later this afternoon when I have more time.

How much time does it take?

The AMPC sums up Ephesians 2:8 very nicely - "For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God."

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Greek word for "keep" is tereo.

Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

 

[mailmandan]

The commandments of Jesus, as outlined in the Bible, emphasize love, faith, and obedience to God. Here are the commandments of Jesus along with their corresponding Scripture references:
Love God and keep His commandments:

John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Love one another:

1 John 5:3 - "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

Uphold faith and obedience:

By following these commandments of Jesus with love, faith, and obedience, believers demonstrate their devotion to God and fulfill His will in their lives.

I don't believe anyone on here disagrees with obeying Jesus is the demonstrative evidence of our devotion to God and our love for Jesus. The crux of the issue is does the 4th commandment from the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law apply to the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Believers are not Israelites under the law. (Exodus 31:16-17; Deuteronomy 5:15)

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[Johann]

I don't believe anyone on here disagrees with obeying Jesus is the demonstrative evidence of our devotion to God and our love for Jesus. The crux of the issue is does the 4th commandment from the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law apply to the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Believers are not Israelites under the law. (Exodus 31:16-17; Deuteronomy 5:15)

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

The reason why I don't want to enter into a discussion re the Sabbath.


The debate surrounding the applicability of the 4th commandment from the 10 commandments to the body of Christ is multifaceted, with various perspectives -
Banner of Truth: The article suggests that the Sabbath commandment is seen as a type of rest in Christ and has found its fulfillment in Him. It argues that while the other nine commandments are moral in nature, the Sabbath commandment is a ceremonial ordinance given to the old covenant people and is not applicable to new covenant believers

Puritan Board: The discussion on this forum reflects a view that the 4th Commandment has not been abrogated in the New Covenant. It emphasizes that the Sabbath observance has its roots in creation and that both Sabbatarians and those who believe the 4th Commandment has been abrogated may be neglecting certain teachings in the New Testament

Ligonier: The article from Ligonier presents a perspective that while new covenant believers no longer observe a seventh-day Sabbath, they still follow the principle of Sabbath observance by setting aside the first day of the week for Christian worship. It highlights that under the new covenant, the focus is on celebrating God's new creation in Christ

HRW Church: This source discusses how the early church transitioned from Saturday Sabbath observance to Sunday worship, emphasizing that Sunday became the main day of corporate worship. It notes that while some Christians may view Sunday as the Sabbath day, in reality, every day is recognized as holy in the New Covenant

In conclusion, there are differing views on whether the 4th commandment applies to Christians under the new covenant. Some argue for its continued relevance, while others suggest its fulfillment in Christ has altered its application. Ultimately, individual interpretations may vary based on theological perspectives and understandings of biblical teachings.


Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.


In Romans 14:5-8, Paul provides guidance on issues related to personal convictions concerning dietary restrictions and Sabbath observances. The exegetical summation and context of these verses are as follows:

Verses 5 and 6 address differences in opinion regarding the value of specific days and food preferences. Paul encourages acceptance and tolerance, stating that each person should be fully convinced in their own minds and that everyone honors God in their respective choices. Whether someone observes a special day or abstains from certain foods, they do so in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.
Verse 7 reinforces the interconnectedness of all humans, emphasizing that no one exists independently. Our lives and deaths are tied to God, and we belong to Him.
Verse 8 draws the conclusion that, regardless of whether we live or die, we remain the Lord's property. Therefore, we should conduct ourselves accordingly, honoring God in all aspects of our lives.
Paul's primary goal in addressing these topics is to foster unity and harmony within the church, encouraging believers to accept one another despite differences in opinions and practices. The underlying principle is that, above all else, we belong to God and should strive to glorify Him in all we say and do.

Johann.

 

[vassal]

Are Jesus' words more authoritative than Paul's?

Absolutely yes! why?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Peace

 

[Johann]

Absolutely yes! why?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Peace

Both Jesus' words and the writings of the apostles, including Paul, possess equal authority because they come from God. As stated in 2 Peter 1:20-21, "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private origin, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit"

. The apostles themselves acknowledged the authority of Paul's writings, as seen in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture-




Therefore, while Jesus' words are indeed authoritative, so too are the words of the apostles, including Paul, because they were guided by the Holy Spirit and spoken under the inspiration of God

. The entirety of the Bible, including the words of Jesus and the apostles, constitutes the infallible Word of God-


The apostle Peter is writing to believers, emphasizing the importance of growth in Christian virtues and the reliability of Scripture (2 Peter 1:5-21).

Peter addresses false teachers who distort the truth and warns against their destructive teachings (2 Peter 2:1-3).
He underscores the certainty of Christ's return and the need for believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of that day (2 Peter 3:11-14).

Explanation:
"No prophecy of Scripture": Refers to the messages conveyed through prophets and writers of Scripture.
"Is of any private origin": Indicates that Scripture did not originate from the personal thoughts or interpretations of individuals but came from God.
"Men spoke from God": Highlights that although human authors wrote the Scriptures, their words were inspired by God Himself.
"As they were carried along by the Holy Spirit": Describes the process of divine inspiration where the Holy Spirit guided and directed the writers to convey God's message accurately.
Implications:
The passage affirms the divine authorship and authority of Scripture, emphasizing its reliability and truthfulness.
It underscores that Scripture is not a product of human invention but a revelation from God Himself.
It highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in inspiring and guiding the writers of Scripture, ensuring its accuracy and relevance for believers.
In conclusion, 2 Peter 1:20-21 asserts that Scripture is not a human creation but a divine revelation inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. This passage reinforces the foundational belief in the authority, reliability, and divine origin of the Bible as God's inspired Word.

The phrase "my gospel" is used by Paul in several places in the New Testament, including Romans 2:16, 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8. The phrase emphasizes the unique message that Paul received from Christ and preached to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul's gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile, and all were counted in unbelief as sinners and judged by God without respect of persons whether given the law or not. Paul's gospel was entirely of Christ, and he stands alone in calling it "the gospel of Christ" and "Christ's gospel," but that he also calls it "my gospel" can only be explained by the fact that Christ gave it first to Paul exclusively. No one else in scripture could claim "my gospel," nor can we.

We learned the gospel from Paul's writings, and the twelve apostles taught the same gospel as John the Baptist and of which the prophets spoke. Paul repeatedly says that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to him, and the Lord revealed to Paul a mystery kept secret since the world began. Paul was the chosen vessel of the Lord, appointed to the office of apostle of the Gentiles. His gospel was not received by man, nor was it of man, but given to him first by the Lord.

Time to get ourselves firmly acquainted with the gospel of Paul-which IS the gospel of Messiah.

 

[Johann]

Both Jesus' words and the writings of the apostles, including Paul, possess equal authority because they come from God. As stated in 2 Peter 1:20-21, "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private origin, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit"

. The apostles themselves acknowledged the authority of Paul's writings, as seen in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture-




Therefore, while Jesus' words are indeed authoritative, so too are the words of the apostles, including Paul, because they were guided by the Holy Spirit and spoken under the inspiration of God

. The entirety of the Bible, including the words of Jesus and the apostles, constitutes the infallible Word of God-


The apostle Peter is writing to believers, emphasizing the importance of growth in Christian virtues and the reliability of Scripture (2 Peter 1:5-21).

Peter addresses false teachers who distort the truth and warns against their destructive teachings (2 Peter 2:1-3).
He underscores the certainty of Christ's return and the need for believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of that day (2 Peter 3:11-14).

Explanation:
"No prophecy of Scripture": Refers to the messages conveyed through prophets and writers of Scripture.
"Is of any private origin": Indicates that Scripture did not originate from the personal thoughts or interpretations of individuals but came from God.
"Men spoke from God": Highlights that although human authors wrote the Scriptures, their words were inspired by God Himself.
"As they were carried along by the Holy Spirit": Describes the process of divine inspiration where the Holy Spirit guided and directed the writers to convey God's message accurately.
Implications:
The passage affirms the divine authorship and authority of Scripture, emphasizing its reliability and truthfulness.
It underscores that Scripture is not a product of human invention but a revelation from God Himself.
It highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in inspiring and guiding the writers of Scripture, ensuring its accuracy and relevance for believers.
In conclusion, 2 Peter 1:20-21 asserts that Scripture is not a human creation but a divine revelation inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. This passage reinforces the foundational belief in the authority, reliability, and divine origin of the Bible as God's inspired Word.

The phrase "my gospel" is used by Paul in several places in the New Testament, including Romans 2:16, 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8. The phrase emphasizes the unique message that Paul received from Christ and preached to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul's gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile, and all were counted in unbelief as sinners and judged by God without respect of persons whether given the law or not. Paul's gospel was entirely of Christ, and he stands alone in calling it "the gospel of Christ" and "Christ's gospel," but that he also calls it "my gospel" can only be explained by the fact that Christ gave it first to Paul exclusively. No one else in scripture could claim "my gospel," nor can we.

We learned the gospel from Paul's writings, and the twelve apostles taught the same gospel as John the Baptist and of which the prophets spoke. Paul repeatedly says that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to him, and the Lord revealed to Paul a mystery kept secret since the world began. Paul was the chosen vessel of the Lord, appointed to the office of apostle of the Gentiles. His gospel was not received by man, nor was it of man, but given to him first by the Lord.

Time to get ourselves firmly acquainted with the gospel of Paul-which IS the gospel of Messiah.

Glad you find it useful @mailmandan since it is something to ponder and"chew the cud" about.
Johann.

 

[vassal]

Both Jesus' words and the writings of the apostles, including Paul, possess equal authority because they come from God. As stated in 2 Peter 1:20-21, "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private origin, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit"

. The apostles themselves acknowledged the authority of Paul's writings, as seen in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture-




Therefore, while Jesus' words are indeed authoritative, so too are the words of the apostles, including Paul, because they were guided by the Holy Spirit and spoken under the inspiration of God

. The entirety of the Bible, including the words of Jesus and the apostles, constitutes the infallible Word of God-


The apostle Peter is writing to believers, emphasizing the importance of growth in Christian virtues and the reliability of Scripture (2 Peter 1:5-21).

Peter addresses false teachers who distort the truth and warns against their destructive teachings (2 Peter 2:1-3).
He underscores the certainty of Christ's return and the need for believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of that day (2 Peter 3:11-14).

Explanation:
"No prophecy of Scripture": Refers to the messages conveyed through prophets and writers of Scripture.
"Is of any private origin": Indicates that Scripture did not originate from the personal thoughts or interpretations of individuals but came from God.
"Men spoke from God": Highlights that although human authors wrote the Scriptures, their words were inspired by God Himself.
"As they were carried along by the Holy Spirit": Describes the process of divine inspiration where the Holy Spirit guided and directed the writers to convey God's message accurately.
Implications:
The passage affirms the divine authorship and authority of Scripture, emphasizing its reliability and truthfulness.
It underscores that Scripture is not a product of human invention but a revelation from God Himself.
It highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in inspiring and guiding the writers of Scripture, ensuring its accuracy and relevance for believers.
In conclusion, 2 Peter 1:20-21 asserts that Scripture is not a human creation but a divine revelation inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. This passage reinforces the foundational belief in the authority, reliability, and divine origin of the Bible as God's inspired Word.

The phrase "my gospel" is used by Paul in several places in the New Testament, including Romans 2:16, 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8. The phrase emphasizes the unique message that Paul received from Christ and preached to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul's gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile, and all were counted in unbelief as sinners and judged by God without respect of persons whether given the law or not. Paul's gospel was entirely of Christ, and he stands alone in calling it "the gospel of Christ" and "Christ's gospel," but that he also calls it "my gospel" can only be explained by the fact that Christ gave it first to Paul exclusively. No one else in scripture could claim "my gospel," nor can we.

We learned the gospel from Paul's writings, and the twelve apostles taught the same gospel as John the Baptist and of which the prophets spoke. Paul repeatedly says that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to him, and the Lord revealed to Paul a mystery kept secret since the world began. Paul was the chosen vessel of the Lord, appointed to the office of apostle of the Gentiles. His gospel was not received by man, nor was it of man, but given to him first by the Lord.

Time to get ourselves firmly acquainted with the gospel of Paul-which IS the gospel of Messiah.

unfortunately Paul said things that are not godly at all, I am certain when you read his epistles you came across verses that were inappropriate, but going further would cause trouble here so lets not continue.

The Gospels are different, it is why Paul calls it HIS gospel;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Johann, I am risking banishment here for saying the truth that displeases many, there is an important concept in the bible it is called witnessing, do a search for the word witness throughput the bible, GOD clearly established witnesses to Jesus, first in the O.T then in the N.T. it clearly states that witnesses are important to establish the truth.

Also know that i posted a new thread on the New covenant that never came out, did cc forget or have decided to not post it? here it is, it is a post that will again make people uncomfortable I think but to me it is true;

I will post here on this thread or it would exceed the 1000 character limit on this reply.

 

[vassal]

title: We are not in the new covenant;

We find in the bible only 4 verses containing the phrase "New covenant" they are (KJV) ;

Jer 31:31-34: 31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
The first verse from Jeremiah is a prophecy about the New Covenant, It immediately follows chapter 30 which is dedicated to the restauration of the lost tribes of Israel and Judah, it is well advised to read Jeremiah 30 beforehand to put things in the context for which the prophecy of the New Covenant was intended, the end times.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
I do not think I have to comment on this prophecy, the text and meaning are clear, the New Covenant will be for a time corresponding to Christ second coming, clearly the end times.
A few more prophecies also speak of the end times and tell us of the restauration of the lost tribes of Israel;zk 28:25, Isa 11:11-13, if you use the cross link in some bible software you will find many more.
Back to the topic of the new Covenant from Paul's writings we have:
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Here Heb 8:7, Paul confirms the writings of the O.T. that says that GOD knows well that the Israelites would break the covenant. see below;
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Deu 31:20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Paul quotes heavily from Jeremiah 31
Note the verse in Heb 8:13;

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In all versions of the bible, it says clearly is about to pass away it does not say has passed away.
Paul at that time thought that the end times were imminent and he would see the second coming of Christ;
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

to conclude based on scripture and NOT no a personal interpretation. The new covenant is for the end times.
the proof is the fact that many do not follow the commandments, under the New Covenant, as described in ;
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
It is clear to me that we are not yet under the New covenant.
Note also in Rev 11:19 ; Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. Rev 11:19 follows the 7 trumpet and seems to be at the time of the Judgment.

 

[Johann]

unfortunately Paul said things that are not godly at all, I am certain when you read his epistles you came across verses that were inappropriate, but going further would cause trouble here so lets not continue.[/QUOTe
Brother-this does not "sit right" with me-no offense.


The statement "unfortunately Paul said things that are not godly at all" is a serious accusation against the apostle Paul and his writings. To counteract this statement with proper exegetical hermeneutics, I can consider the following points:
Contextual Understanding:
It is essential to understand the context of Paul's writings, including the historical, cultural, and literary context, to interpret his words accurately.
Paul's letters were written to specific audiences in specific contexts, addressing particular issues and challenges faced by those communities.
Therefore, it is crucial to consider the context of each passage to understand its intended meaning.
Biblical Authority:
The Bible is considered the authoritative Word of God, and its teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Paul's writings are part of the canon of Scripture and are considered divinely inspired and authoritative for Christian belief and practice.
Therefore, any accusations against Paul's writings must be supported by sound exegetical and hermeneutical principles.

Interpretation:
It is possible that some of Paul's teachings may be challenging or difficult to understand, but this does not necessarily mean that they are ungodly or inappropriate.
Proper interpretation of Paul's writings requires careful attention to the literary genre, historical context, and theological themes present in each passage.
It is also important to consider the broader biblical context and the teachings of Jesus and the other apostles to ensure a consistent interpretation.

Scholarly Insights:
Various scholars have offered different interpretations of Paul's writings, and it is essential to engage with these perspectives to gain a deeper understanding of his teachings.
However, any interpretation must be grounded in sound exegetical and hermeneutical principles and aligned with the broader biblical context and teachings.
In conclusion, accusations against Paul's writings must be approached with proper exegetical and hermeneutical principles, considering the context, biblical authority, interpretation, and scholarly insights. While some of Paul's teachings may be challenging or difficult to understand, they are considered authoritative and inspired by the Holy Spirit, and any accusations against them must be supported by sound biblical evidence.
J.

 

[vassal]

verify all things, I am not speaking against Paul but For Jesus, Paul clearly say he has his own gospel, just do a study on the differences you will see. About Paul lets saw he had a huge ego.

Blessings

 

[Johann]

We find in the bible only 4 verses containing the phrase "New covenant" they are (KJV) ;

Brother-


The Bible is considered the authoritative Word of God, and its teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The New Testament, including the writings of Paul, is considered divinely inspired and authoritative for Christian belief and practice.

Therefore, any accusations against Paul's writings must be supported by sound exegetical and hermeneutical principles.

Contextual Understanding:
It is essential to understand the context of Paul's writings, including the historical, cultural, and literary context, to interpret his words accurately.
Paul's letters were written to specific audiences in specific contexts, addressing particular issues and challenges faced by those communities.
Therefore, it is crucial to consider the context of each passage to understand its intended meaning.
Interpretation:

The New Covenant is a central theme in the Bible, and it is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments.

While the New Covenant is primarily associated with the end times, it is also a present reality for believers in Jesus Christ.
The New Covenant is characterized by the forgiveness of sins, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the transformation of hearts and minds to follow God's will.

Scriptural Evidence:
Your argument that the New Covenant is only for the end times is not supported by Scripture.
Hebrews 8:13 states that the first covenant is "ready to vanish away," indicating that the New Covenant has already been established.
Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is quoted in Hebrews 8, describes the New Covenant as a present reality, not just a future event.

Your argument that people do not follow the commandments under the New Covenant is not a valid reason to discount its present reality, as the New Covenant is not dependent on human obedience but on God's grace and mercy.

The New Covenant is a present reality for believers in Jesus Christ, characterized by the forgiveness of sins, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the transformation of hearts and minds to follow God's will. While the New Covenant is associated with the end times, it is not limited to that time period and has already been established through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I sincerely hope I understand you correctly-Are you Preterist?

 

[Johann]

verify all things, I am not speaking against Paul but For Jesus, Paul clearly say he has his own gospel, just do a study on the differences you will see. About Paul lets saw he had a huge ego.

Blessings

I am astonished! Paul had a huge ego?!

 

[Aaron56]

Set free from the law of death- which is the condemnation of sin- breaking God’s law, not free to break God’s law and sin Rom 7:7 1 John 3:4

Those who set their minds on the Spirit are keeping God’s Commandments own 14:15-18. Those who are hostile to God’s law have their minds set on flesh (sin) which is why they are unable to keep God’s law. Rom 8:4-8

When we are living for Jesus we are keeping His commandments through love and faith. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son (The law and the 10 commandments) for the son of the bondwoman (those who still observe the law) shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Those born of the spirit).

 

[rrcn]

I am astonished! Paul had a huge ego?!

Paul offers good advice:
[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
What is happening here is that two groups have studied and arrived at different opinions.