Contextual study

[wattie]

There are principles that allow a reader to understand a passage of scripture, having first prayed for the Holy Spirit to work on your heart before reading the passage.

Firstly- Asking who is talking to whom? The people being addressed could come from many different backgrounds and not be believers. So you don't apply a passage addressed to non-believers to believers.

Secondly- What is the subject of the passage? The verse before the one you are looking at could have the primary reason for the passage in it.

Thirdly- When or what time is the passage in.

Lastly- What is the occasion for speaking or writing? Time, place, event?

So with these questions you can look at a passage and see the real application of it.. rather than your own interpretation.

An example:

It's popular to believe the verse 'where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them' .. is about christians gathered anywhere, for any purpose- that Jesus will be in the midst there with them.

But what is the context?


KJV:

(Mat 18:15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
(Mat 18:16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(Mat 18:17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
(Mat 18:18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(Mat 18:19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Who is talking to whom? Jesus to the disciples

What is the subject? Dealing with a sinning brother- in the context of a local New Testament church setting. A similar process used in Deuteronomy for disciplining people in the Israel assembly. The Old Testament process for discipline.

When or what time? Before He would ascend to heaven.

Occasion for speaking? The disciples are asking Him questions while gathered with Him, when He is journeying performing miracles.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There are principles that allow a reader to understand a passage of scripture, having first prayed for the Holy Spirit to work on your heart before reading the passage.

While we need to understand the context, that is not the critical issue. How does that passage apply (1) to myself at the moment and (2) to the current state of affairs in the churches and in the world. Let's take the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. Those churches are long gone, but the messages are all applicable RIGHT NOW to each of us and to every church in the world. Above all the Holy Spirit must teach us what do to with what we have just read.

 

[wattie]

While we need to understand the context, that is not the critical issue. How does that passage apply (1) to myself at the moment and (2) to the current state of affairs in the churches and in the world. Let's take the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. Those churches are long gone, but the messages are all applicable RIGHT NOW to each of us and to every church in the world. Above all the Holy Spirit must teach us what do to with what we have just read.

Yea i agree, so the Matthew 18 passage would be about taking steps to actually have discipline in your local church.

 

[wattie]

Another passage that we quote alot is James 2 'faith without works is dead'

Most of the time, though we don't read the surrounding verses.

James 2:14-22 KJVS - 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You can see the subject of this passage is about using the faith you already have for God's profit.

Eternal salvation is not the subject.

Many use one verse alone in this passage and attach it to Eternal salvation, when it is about daily faith..not conversion.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I believe faith without works is dead, because your faith becomes dead works, if you don't practice what you preach.

But I'm sure it doesn't mean you faith is dead completely, it just means your faith has become dead works and needs restoring.

 

[wattie]

I believe faith without works is dead, because your faith becomes dead works, if you don't practice what you preach.

But I'm sure it doesn't mean you faith is dead completely, it just means your faith has become dead works and needs restoring.

When Abraham offered his son Iaaac up...he had believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness long before offering up Isaac.

Rehab was using faith she already had.

So you are right it's not saying their eternal salvation is hooked to these acts of service..but if they didn't do them would have a lifeless, dormant faith.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

When Abraham offered his son Iaaac up...he had believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness long before offering up Isaac.

Rehab was using faith she already had.

So you are right it's not saying their eternal salvation is hooked to these acts of service..but if they didn't do them would have a lifeless, dormant faith.

There is a major problem with that scripture, God told Abraham to take his first born son Isaac to the alter, but Ismael had already been born,

So why did he not take Ismael. ?.

And why should it not read take Ismael your first born son to the alter.

 

[wattie]

There is a major problem with that scripture, God told Abraham to take his first born son Isaac to the alter, but Ismael had already been born,

So why did he not take Ismael. ?.

And why should it not read take Ismael your first born son to the alter.

Good question..I do know it was thru Isaac that the true line thru which God's promises came and not Ishmaels line.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Good question..I do know it was thru Isaac that the true line thru which God's promises came and not Ishmaels line.

I'm not so sure it has only come through one line, theres evidence to suggest the lines have crossed at one stage.

But rehab I'm sure was a Canaanite, who only knew The God of the Israelites was more powerful than any other god, but knew little of his laws and standards like the Israelites did.

 

[wattie]

Ishmael's exclusion:

Luk_13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Act_3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Act_7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good question..I do know it was thru Isaac that the true line thru which God's promises came and not Ishmaels line.

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,

the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman,

but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22-26, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we look back on it we see what he’s saying

“Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, (allegorically isreal) because he is thy seed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭21:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ishmael was born because saria said he had no hier and sent him to Hagar to make a child so he could have an hier with his bondmaid

isaac was born against all logical circumstance Abraham was too old his wife Sarai was old and Baron , he was born because God said he would be born

he made this man past age the father of many nations and this woman past age and baron the mother of the nations and kings

But it wasnt because of nature or rhier own ideas like Ishmael it was based on Gods promise against all nature and logic and what they had thought

that’s how the New covenant is compared to the old. one creates and is born of and continues in bondage but the other sets free from bondage

One covenant produces the hiers of God and children of Abraham by promise

the other is for his illegitimate children had with a bondmaid by his wife’s Will the children are bond servants but Isaac wasn’t a bond servants son but the son of abraham and Sarah the new names God had given them when he made the two covenants with Abraham regarding his two sons

“And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. ….And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:3-5, 15-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Ishmael's exclusion:

Luk_13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Act_3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Act_7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

ridiculous, how is this excluding Ismael, ?. Because it doesn't mention him ?.

Well I don't see your name there,.does that mean your excluded.

 

[wattie]

ridiculous, how is this excluding Ismael, ?. Because it doesn't mention him ?.

Well I don't see your name there,.does that mean your excluded.

Point is.. it was primarily thru Isaac the promises came. And Israel in the wilderness is thru this descent.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Point is.. it was primarily thru Isaac the promises came. And Israel in the wilderness is thru this descent.

well Ismael was also sent through the wilderness but God was with him his whole childhood.

Is that any different to the Israelites in the wilderness,.

Did Abraham bring the wrong son, because a similar thing happend with esau and Jacob. Remember it was Jacobs mum who told Jacob to dress up as esau. But yet Jacob got the first blessing.

I wonder did Abraham mistake God's command. Did he hear it correctly.

It's seems of God said bring your first born Issac.

Did he really say bring your first born Ismael, but maybe Abraham, thought he said differently.

 

[wattie]

well Ismael was also sent through the wilderness but God was with him his whole childhood.

Is that any different to the Israelites in the wilderness,.

Did Abraham bring the wrong son, because a similar thing happend with esau and Jacob. Remember it was Jacobs mum who told Jacob to dress up as esau. But yet Jacob got the first blessing.

I wonder did Abraham mistake God's command. Did he hear it correctly.

It's seems of God said bring your first born Issac.

Did he really say bring your first born Ismael, but maybe Abraham, thought he said differently.

Ishmael was the product of illegitimacy. Isaac was not. Isaac was the true heir.. the true 'only begotten'

Jesus is referred to as 'only begotten'.. but Jesus was never not existing.. so for Jesus, this is more like 'supreme heir'... so it is with Isaac.. 'supreme heir' of the only right inheritance through God's promises.

Have a read of Pilgrim's Hope's post on this.. I don't agree with him on a lot .. but this I do agree.

Also:

https://www.dwellcc.org/teaching/5015/bible/genesis/21/scott-risley/2017/abraham-and-isaac

 

[wattie]

I should say.. Ishmael was not the product of illegitimacy. .but surrogacy through an ungodly parent to be precise.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I should say.. Ishmael was not the product of illegitimacy. .but surrogacy through an ungodly parent to be precise.

Not true, Sarah gave her blessing to Hagar to conceive a son to Abraham.

If it was illegitimate, God would not have given Ismael a promise.

 

[wattie]

Not true, Sarah gave her blessing to Hagar to conceive a son to Abraham.

If it was illegitimate, God would not have given Ismael a promise.

Ya I am a bit mistaken there..but hagars descendants did become synonymous with a troublesome line of people.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Ya I am a bit mistaken there..but hagars descendants did become synonymous with a troublesome line of people.

what do you mean by synonymous.

I believe it's very important to recognise a few things here, there's evidence that the descendants of the ismael and the descendants of Isaac, mixed, and became the the sons of Jacob,

But what's more important to recognise here is Abram was a Hebrew, not a Jew.

It would be the Jews that would go on to be called the Israelites. (Sons of Jacob).

Because Jacob's name was changed to Isreal.

It's also clear from scripture the Israelites (Jews) are now in exile and have yet to be saved.

It's also clear that hebrews have been saved.

And it's also clear the gentiles Christians have yet to be saved to.

Because both will face judgment day.

The only way to receive salvation before you die is to have your faith refined and be baptised in water.

You can not receive salvation before this happens.

Don't get baptised and hopefully you will be still resurrected in Christ and still be baptised, after you die.

But I have to warn you faith that rejects the commandments, becomes dead works.

The chances are you will be punished for rejecting God's words

Not only this but you may even be handed over to a reprobate mind before he baptises you.

According to scripture this is a bad place to be.

.

 

[wattie]

what do you mean by synonymous.

I believe it's very important to recognise a few things here, there's evidence that the descendants of the ismael and the descendants of Isaac, mixed, and became the the sons of Jacob,

But what's more important to recognise here is Abram was a Hebrew, not a Jew.

It would be the Jews that would go on to be called the Israelites. (Sons of Jacob).

Because Jacob's name was changed to Isreal.

It's also clear from scripture the Israelites (Jews) are now in exile and have yet to be saved.

It's also clear that hebrews have been saved.

And it's also clear the gentiles Christians have yet to be saved to.

Because both will face judgment day.

The only way to receive salvation before you die is to have your faith refined and be baptised in water.

You can not receive salvation before this happens.

Don't get baptised and hopefully you will be still resurrected in Christ and still be baptised, after you die.

But I have to warn you faith that rejects the commandments, becomes dead works.

The chances are you will be punished for rejecting God's words

Not only this but you may even be handed over to a reprobate mind before he baptises you.

According to scripture this is a bad place to be.

.

Salvation happens the moment someone places their faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and receiving eternal life. Almost the entire book of John says this.

Also...baptism after death? Where is that in scripture?

I haven't got some things quite right but baptism I've never seen after death in scripture.

I think you are mixing up temporal deliverance with eternal deliverance