Predestination is misunderstood...

[Rufus]

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

11. εἰς τὰ ἴδια. The difference between neuter and masculine must be preserved: He came to His own inheritance; and His own people received Him not. In the parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Mat_21:33-41) τὰ ἴδια is the vineyard; οἱ ἴδιοι are the husbandmen, the Chosen people, the Jews. Or, as in Joh_19:27, we may render εἰς τὰ ἴδια unto His own home: cf. Joh_16:32, Joh_19:27; Act_21:6; Est_5:10; Est_6:12. The tragic tone is very strong here, as in Joh_1:5; Joh_1:10.

Matthew 15:24 is a verse in the New Testament that suggests that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Other verses that suggest that the disciples were sent only to the Israelites include:

Matthew 10:5-6: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'"

Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Acts 13:46: "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: 'We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.'"

These verses suggest that the disciples were primarily sent to the Israelites, with the message of salvation being offered to the Gentiles only after it had been offered to the Jews. However, it's important to note that the message of salvation was ultimately intended for all people, regardless of their ethnicity or background.

You have asked a lot of questions brother and space will not permit me to answer-who was the apostle to the Goyim?

Yes, Paul was known as the apostle to the Gentiles. He was specifically chosen by God to bring the message of salvation to the Gentiles, who were considered outsiders by the Jewish people. Paul himself referred to his ministry as being primarily focused on the Gentiles, and he spent much of his time traveling to different regions to preach the gospel to non-Jewish people.

In Romans 11:13, Paul calls himself "the apostle to the Gentiles."

He also writes in Galatians 2:7-8 that he had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised (Gentiles), while Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (Jews).

Additionally, in Ephesians 3:1-12, Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that had been revealed to him, which was that the Gentiles would be co-heirs with the Jews and part of the same body through the gospel.

A quick question-How many mysteries were given to Paul-and what are they?

Overall, Paul's ministry was instrumental in spreading the message of salvation to the Gentiles and helping to establish the early Christian church among non-Jewish people

And I concur-we need to be like Miles Coverdale and rightly divide the Scriptures. I am affiliated with the Berean Bible Society-so now I have given you ammunition to shoot down, in flames, Dispentational studies-but I am not here to score a point.

Hope my answer will suffice-12.09 AM in South Africa.

To Messiah be the glory.
J.

Yes, Jesus was sent to the House of Israel first but not exclusively. What happened when he sent the 70 out? He did not restrict them, as he did with the 12, did he?

And, yes, it was because Jesus was sent to his own and his own rejected him that he finally "rejected" them! Did he not tell Israel the kingdom of heaven would be taken from then and given to another "nation" who would bear the fruit thereof? And wasn't that nation the Church!? And the final rejection came in 70 A.D., did it not? Was Israel and Judah unified by 70 A.D.? Not hardly! Anything but. In fact, historians, including Josephus, basically tell us that Israel appeared to have this huge death wish as they were very divided. Israel brought the Romans upon themselves! Israel was its own worst enemy!

At any rate, this morning I was having my devotions in Acts and then came upon this very intriguing passage which the Lord was pleased to bestow upon me another one of his "epiphany" moments.

Acts 13:46-48
46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

"'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NIV

Again, we must remember that neither Paul or Barnabas were members of the Eleven who were present with Jesus when He prayed to his Father in John 17. According to you when Jesus prayed his High Priestly Prayer intercessory prayer to his Father, He didn't have the Pauls and Barnabases of this world in mind, did he? He was only praying for the 11 and other Jews who would be evangelized by the 11, right? But look very closely at the passage above.

Paul said, "this is what the Lord has commanded us", and then proceeds to quote Isa 49:6 in v.48, which is a messianic prophecy that I cited yesterday in my 587. In the prophecy, the Messiah is the "light for the Gentiles" so that HE would "bring salvation to the ends of he earth". But Jesus didn't bring salvation to the ends of the earth during his 3-1/2 year ministry, did he? How could he? He never left the Palestine area during his entire ministry. Failed prophecy? Not hardly!

After Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, He began to turn the world upside down my members of his Body, a/k/a apostles and disciples. (Again, Barnabas was not an apostle. And Philip, was sent by he Spirit to witness to an Ethiopian -- another Gentile.) Paul interpreted Isa 49:6 as a command! He, Barnabas and probably others, as well saw in that messianic prophecy their "marching orders" to go out into the world to make disciples of all nations! Don't forget: Israel is a type of Christ by contrasts! Jesus is the Greater Israel. He did everything the nation of Israel was called to do under the Old Covenant, but failed to carry out. Israel itself was called to be a light to the surrounding nations, but they were everything but! So, Jesus comes into this world -- to Israel - as their light and the light of the world. And by extension, all his disciples are called to be that light also! And to take our light to as many people as we can. This Acts passage above strongly supports my argument that John 17 and all the other passages I cited yesterday in my 587 must be understood in a much broader context. For we are all members of Christ's body and what Jesus was commissioned to do by the Father, we by extension are also commissioned. We are his ambassadors!

 

[Johann]

Yes, Jesus was sent to the House of Israel first but not exclusively. What happened when he sent the 70 out? He did not restrict them, as he did with the 12, did he?

And, yes, it was because Jesus was sent to his own and his own rejected him that he finally "rejected" them! Did he not tell Israel the kingdom of heaven would be taken from then and given to another "nation" who would bear the fruit thereof? And wasn't that nation the Church!? And the final rejection came in 70 A.D., did it not? Was Israel and Judah unified by 70 A.D.? Not hardly! Anything but. In fact, historians, including Josephus, basically tell us that Israel appeared to have this huge death wish as they were very divided. Israel brought the Romans upon themselves! Israel was its own worst enemy!

At any rate, this morning I was having my devotions in Acts and then came upon this very intriguing passage which the Lord was pleased to bestow upon me another one of his "epiphany" moments.

Acts 13:46-48
46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

"'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NIV

Again, we must remember that neither Paul or Barnabas were members of the Eleven who were present with Jesus when He prayed to his Father in John 17. According to you when Jesus prayed his High Priestly Prayer intercessory prayer to his Father, He didn't have the Pauls and Barnabases of this world in mind, did he? He was only praying for the 11 and other Jews who would be evangelized by the 11, right? But look very closely at the passage above.

Paul said, "this is what the Lord has commanded us", and then proceeds to quote Isa 49:6 in v.48, which is a messianic prophecy that I cited yesterday in my 587. In the prophecy, the Messiah is the "light for the Gentiles" so that HE would "bring salvation to the ends of he earth". But Jesus didn't bring salvation to the ends of the earth during his 3-1/2 year ministry, did he? How could he? He never left the Palestine area during his entire ministry. Failed prophecy? Not hardly!

After Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, He began to turn the world upside down my members of his Body, a/k/a apostles and disciples. (Again, Barnabas was not an apostle. And Philip, was sent by he Spirit to witness to an Ethiopian -- another Gentile.) Paul interpreted Isa 49:6 as a command! He, Barnabas and probably others, as well saw in that messianic prophecy their "marching orders" to go out into the world to make disciples of all nations! Don't forget: Israel is a type of Christ by contrasts! Jesus is the Greater Israel. He did everything the nation of Israel was called to do under the Old Covenant, but failed to carry out. Israel itself was called to be a light to the surrounding nations, but they were everything but! So, Jesus comes into this world -- to Israel - as their light and the light of the world. And by extension, all his disciples are called to be that light also! And to take our light to as many people as we can. This Acts passage above strongly supports my argument that John 17 and all the other passages I cited yesterday in my 587 must be understood in a much broader context. For we are all members of Christ's body and what Jesus was commissioned to do by the Father, we by extension are also commissioned. We are his ambassadors!

Thank you for the post-yes, we are His ambassadors.
One question-if I may-
Do you think the ekklesia have replaced YisraEl?
J.

 

[sawdust]

No I'm not. Everything God created was good and very good. Sin is what made the heart as it is. And God is the one who restores the heart.

And sin finds it's source in the flesh (body), not the soul.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The soul reacts to the impulses of the sin nature in the body, sucking in the lies of Satan and the world (made captive) which in turn corrupts the soul. God restores the heart (the seat of values which comes from the soul) by giving us the truth with which to think, driving out the lies, by means of His grace. The soul, in and of itself, comes into this world uncorrupted. We learn good and evil.

If "the law of sin" was in the soul as it is in the body, we would be in a state of constant rejection of God's truth, no-one could be saved. Our bodies will be replaced in the Resurrection but God can't replace our souls or we would no longer be the person we are. Our souls are to be transformed beginning now in this life through the word of truth in our hearts. We are to see ourselves dead to the impulses of the sin nature that tempt us to follow the lies and let the truth dwell in us richly.

The heart is not the problem for it is easily corrected by truth. The body, on the other hand, or more specifically the law of sin within the body, must be destroyed. There is no correction for evil, only destruction.

 

[sawdust]

Therefore, while the Bible does not say that our hearts are intrinsically evil, it does teach that the human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and that only God can change it.

let's stay with what stands written and not lean on our own understanding of the text.

Yes, but you are not dealing with how it gets like that. I'm trying to explain how it gets that way. We are not born with our hearts innately evil. You have at least agreed with me on that in your post #643.

 

[sawdust]

If by "flesh" you mean our sinful nature, yes.

Within the context I meant the body as the place where the sin nature (the law of sin) has it's origin. The body itself is not sinful.

 

[Cameron143]

And sin finds it's source in the flesh (body), not the soul.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The soul reacts to the impulses of the sin nature in the body, sucking in the lies of Satan and the world (made captive) which in turn corrupts the soul. God restores the heart (the seat of values which comes from the soul) by giving us the truth with which to think, driving out the lies, by means of His grace. The soul, in and of itself, comes into this world uncorrupted. We learn good and evil.

If "the law of sin" was in the soul as it is in the body, we would be in a state of constant rejection of God's truth, no-one could be saved. Our bodies will be replaced in the Resurrection but God can't replace our souls or we would no longer be the person we are. Our souls are to be transformed beginning now in this life through the word of truth in our hearts. We are to see ourselves dead to the impulses of the sin nature that tempt us to follow the lies and let the truth dwell in us richly.

The heart is not the problem for it is easily corrected by truth. The body, on the other hand, or more specifically the law of sin within the body, must be destroyed. There is no correction for evil, only destruction.

Okay.

 

[Johann]

Yes, but you are not dealing with how it gets like that. I'm trying to explain how it gets that way. We are not born with our hearts innately evil. You have at least agreed with me on that in your post #643.

The concept of human hearts becoming evil is addressed throughout the Bible, highlighting the propensity for humans to engage in sinful behavior due to the fallen nature inherited from Adam and Eve. Several key verses illustrate this theme:

Genesis 6:5 – Describes humanity as having a completely evil thought pattern, indicating that the heart is prone to wickedness.

Jeremiah 17:9 – States that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, emphasizing its inherent corruption.

Romans 3:10–18 – Confirms that no person is righteous, revealing the universal tendency toward sinfulness.

Matthew 15:18–19 – Explains that evil thoughts originate from the heart, including murder, adultery, theft, false witness, and blasphemy.

Luke 11:13 – Suggests that even those considered evil can still recognize and provide good gifts, pointing to the dual capacity of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1 – Affirms that before salvation, individuals were dead in transgressions and sins, reflecting the natural state of the unredeemed heart.

Psalm 51:5 – Recognizes that humans are shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin, acknowledging the influence of original sin.

These verses collectively demonstrate that the human heart is susceptible to evil influences and that left untended, it tends towards sinful behaviors. However, redemption through faith in Jesus Christ offers hope for transformation and renewal of the heart

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Within the context I meant the body as the place where the sin nature (the law of sin) has it's origin. The body itself is not sinful.

Romans 8:10

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Genez]

The fire of the Holy Spirit can wash away evil.This fire of the Holy Spirit can be applied to anyone.Unlike the baptism of believers.This is entirely the power of God.Don't ask me why I know this, because I was burned by this fire.

You mean "washes away evil" without knowledge and understanding?

That the Holy Spirit "washes away evil" like magic?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You mean "washes away evil" without knowledge and understanding?

That the Holy Spirit "washes away evil" like magic?

are sins are washed by the blood of the lamb, When we are baptized by the spirit into Christ.

 

[Genez]

Within the context I meant the body as the place where the sin nature (the law of sin) has it's origin. The body itself is not sinful.

.................No ..no ..no ..no!

Not one good thing dwells in the flesh!
Only Adam before the fall could have said what you did...


For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. " Romans 7:18

 

[Johann]

The concept of human hearts becoming evil is addressed throughout the Bible, highlighting the propensity for humans to engage in sinful behavior due to the fallen nature inherited from Adam and Eve. Several key verses illustrate this theme:

Genesis 6:5 – Describes humanity as having a completely evil thought pattern, indicating that the heart is prone to wickedness.

Jeremiah 17:9 – States that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, emphasizing its inherent corruption.

Romans 3:10–18 – Confirms that no person is righteous, revealing the universal tendency toward sinfulness.

Matthew 15:18–19 – Explains that evil thoughts originate from the heart, including murder, adultery, theft, false witness, and blasphemy.

Luke 11:13 – Suggests that even those considered evil can still recognize and provide good gifts, pointing to the dual capacity of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1 – Affirms that before salvation, individuals were dead in transgressions and sins, reflecting the natural state of the unredeemed heart.

Psalm 51:5 – Recognizes that humans are shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin, acknowledging the influence of original sin.

These verses collectively demonstrate that the human heart is susceptible to evil influences and that left untended, it tends towards sinful behaviors. However, redemption through faith in Jesus Christ offers hope for transformation and renewal of the heart

However-

Psalm 51:5 acknowledges the influence of original sin, stating, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." This verse has been the subject of exegetical study and interpretation.

Some scholars suggest that it reflects the universal human condition of being born into a sinful world, emphasizing the pervasive nature of sin from birth. The verse is seen as a recognition of the inherent sinful state of humanity, inherited from Adam and Eve.

It is also interpreted as a reflection of the psalmist's deep sense of personal sin and the need for God's cleansing and forgiveness.

The verse has been a topic of theological debate, particularly in relation to the doctrine of original sin and its implications for human nature. Various commentaries and theological studies offer different perspectives on the meaning and significance of this verse, contributing to ongoing discussions within Christian theology

You mean "washes away evil" without knowledge and understanding?

That the Holy Spirit "washes away evil" like magic?

he has it backwards brother-

The statement about the "fire of the Holy Spirit washing away evil" does not have direct scriptural support in the form presented.

The New Testament describes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon conversion or baptism, but it does not describe a literal fire that purifies or removes sin apart from the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Instead, the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the Word of God and faith in Christ to transform lives and empower believers to overcome sin.

The language of "burned by this fire," suggesting a personal experience, cannot be verified based solely on the information provided. Personal experiences may include encounters with God or manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but these should always be evaluated in light of Scripture and sound theological principles.

It is important to note that the baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is distinct from water baptism, although both are significant aspects of Christian life and practice. Water baptism signifies identification with Christ and the new covenant, whereas the baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit empowers them for service and ministry. Both are acts of God, but only the latter is described as available to any believer without regard to time or place.

Shalom
J.

 

[Genez]

are sins are washed by the blood of the lamb, When we are baptized by the spirit into Christ.

Evil and sin are not the same things.
Jesus did not die for evil
He died for sins.

We may sin because our flesh hit the right buttons at a moment of weakness.

So, we sinned....

Just utilize 1 John 1:9.
And, our sin is forgiven of us.

​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness.​

Evil is different than sin.

Evil would rationalize and defend your right to commit a sin.

Evil is anti-truth.

Sin is a defective and unrighteous impulsive response to what may be a genuine need, and without any intent to do evil.
On the other hand. Evil would lie and find reasons to say it was not a sin.

grace and peace ............

 

[Genez]

our sins are washed by the blood of the lamb, When we are baptized by the spirit into Christ.

At that moment in time we are saved? Yes.

But we will commit sins after we are saved.

1 John 1:9 is the Divine Correction Button God has provided for us when it happens.

​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9​

​

Its that easy!

Unbelievers can not use 1 John 1:9. They first need to be born again.
1 John 1:9 is only for believers when they sin.

grace and peace ..................

 

[Genez]

Within the context I meant the body as the place where the sin nature (the law of sin) has it's origin. The body itself is not sinful.

The impulse signals of the body to the soul have become defective.

It would be like the fuel gauge in your car saying "Full" when you are driving on empty.

That is why sinners can drive down the road of life dumb and happy...

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I did not insinuate anything. I stated plainly that you have the order of events backwards, according to Scripture.

ok have it your way, and Goodbye

 

[Genez]

However-

Psalm 51:5 acknowledges the influence of original sin, stating, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." This verse has been the subject of exegetical study and interpretation.

Some scholars suggest that it reflects the universal human condition of being born into a sinful world, emphasizing the pervasive nature of sin from birth. The verse is seen as a recognition of the inherent sinful state of humanity, inherited from Adam and Eve.

It is also interpreted as a reflection of the psalmist's deep sense of personal sin and the need for God's cleansing and forgiveness.

The verse has been a topic of theological debate, particularly in relation to the doctrine of original sin and its implications for human nature. Various commentaries and theological studies offer different perspectives on the meaning and significance of this verse, contributing to ongoing discussions within Christian theology

he has it backwards brother-

The statement about the "fire of the Holy Spirit washing away evil" does not have direct scriptural support in the form presented.

The New Testament describes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon conversion or baptism, but it does not describe a literal fire that purifies or removes sin apart from the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Instead, the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the Word of God and faith in Christ to transform lives and empower believers to overcome sin.

The language of "burned by this fire," suggesting a personal experience, cannot be verified based solely on the information provided. Personal experiences may include encounters with God or manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but these should always be evaluated in light of Scripture and sound theological principles.

It is important to note that the baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is distinct from water baptism, although both are significant aspects of Christian life and practice. Water baptism signifies identification with Christ and the new covenant, whereas the baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit empowers them for service and ministry. Both are acts of God, but only the latter is described as available to any believer without regard to time or place.

Shalom
J.

Isaiah 55:8-9​

​

​

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord.​

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are my ways higher than your ways​

and my thoughts than your thoughts."​

That is why its imperative for us to find and keep learning 'sound doctrine.'

For His thoughts are not our thoughts.
Evil will always try to tell us that our ways are His ways...


Confessing sin, as per 1 John 1:9, washes away "sin." Not evil.

Whereas gaining sound understanding of Scripture?
That process abolishes evil thinking, and washes away our walking in evil.

The process of learning and accepting His thoughts (sound doctrine) as found in Scripture involves our repentance (a change in our thinking), producing in us the transformation of our minds.

 

[sawdust]

The concept of human hearts becoming evil is addressed throughout the Bible, highlighting the propensity for humans to engage in sinful behavior due to the fallen nature inherited from Adam and Eve. Several key verses illustrate this theme:

Genesis 6:5 – Describes humanity as having a completely evil thought pattern, indicating that the heart is prone to wickedness.

Jeremiah 17:9 – States that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, emphasizing its inherent corruption.

Romans 3:10–18 – Confirms that no person is righteous, revealing the universal tendency toward sinfulness.

Matthew 15:18–19 – Explains that evil thoughts originate from the heart, including murder, adultery, theft, false witness, and blasphemy.

Luke 11:13 – Suggests that even those considered evil can still recognize and provide good gifts, pointing to the dual capacity of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1 – Affirms that before salvation, individuals were dead in transgressions and sins, reflecting the natural state of the unredeemed heart.

Psalm 51:5 – Recognizes that humans are shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin, acknowledging the influence of original sin.

These verses collectively demonstrate that the human heart is susceptible to evil influences and that left untended, it tends towards sinful behaviors. However, redemption through faith in Jesus Christ offers hope for transformation and renewal of the heart

Okay.

 

[Genez]

ok have it your way, and Goodbye

Sir, but I asked for extra gravy on the side.

Can't find good waiters these days...

 

[Johann]

Isaiah 55:8-9​

​

​

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord.​

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are my ways higher than your ways​

and my thoughts than your thoughts."​

That is why its imperative for us to find and keep learning 'sound doctrine.'

For His thoughts are not our thoughts.
Evil will always try to tell us that our ways are His ways...


Confessing sin, as per 1 John 1:9, washes away "sin." Not evil.

Whereas gaining sound understanding of Scripture?
That process abolishes evil thinking, and washes away our walking in evil.

The process of learning and accepting His thoughts (sound doctrine) as found in Scripture involves our repentance (a change in our thinking), producing in us the transformation of our minds.

.... Now, piss off!

language I would not expect from you-If you are getting hot under the collar-the back door is that way.
Get it?
J.