What if you die before water baptism?

[Thunderrr-mental]

Its not about feelings... Its about when feelings get in the way of seeing truth.

I am not against you.

ok well that's a better start 😊

I'm glad you've said that it shows you care and are willing to be friendly.

This is a better ground for us talk on in the future.

There is not enough people willing to make amends when it comes to them falling out with you.

I've notice with people Hurt by feelings they generally don't give you another chance so quick.

So I would say your doing ok, but if you are hurting you can always pm me.

I'll give you a chance to 😊

 

[Wansvic]

Those who are familiar with my posts know that I have no problem supplying references. I thought you were aware of the scripture. Clearly I was mistaken:

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve." (Acts 19)

View attachment 260667

Just curious @Genez I haven't seen a response to this post I provided in answer your post. No thoughts?

 

[Wansvic]

Note when and from where Paul wrote the epistles you reference. Paul water baptized those in Acts 19 and wrote Galatians at that time. Romans and Corinthians were written around the same time period.

View attachment 260668

No thoughts concerning this one either? @Genez

 

[listenyoumustAll]

Renewing of the mind is also a form of baptism 😊

Yes it is . but a form of circumcision precisely.

 

[listenyoumustAll]

"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Luke 7:30


"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark 16:15-19

That's scripture but note . also its written 1 John 5:8(KJV) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Genez]

Just curious @Genez I haven't seen a response to this post I provided in answer your post. No thoughts?

Paul who was the genius apostle, was probably the first to understand the new baptism to be replacing the old baptism.

Since we now know there is only One Lord, one faith, one baptism?
Which baptism then is for the church?

Many believers today can be like Peter was.

In the beginning Peter was very SLOW to catch on to understand when something new was to replace
what had been traditionally accepted as a legalistic norm.

For example..
Its why we have Seventh Day Adventists who insist we are to keep the sabbath like those under the Law of Moses had done.

For some mysterious reason..
Some Christians will desire to be under a system of laws to live by.
Laws that act like a check list of things to do, to make one feel right with themself.

Leave them be.... As for the others?

'But continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To him be the glory, now and forever! Amen. " (2 Peter 3:18)​

That was written no less than by Peter, who had to learn that lesson the hard way.


grace and peace............

 

[Genez]

What if you die before water baptism?


..... what if you drown while being water baptized and die during the ritual?

​

How come no forum wiseguy thought of that one yet?​

Could make for a long 'intellectually stimulating' debate.....

 

[jamessb]

What if you die before water baptism?


what if you drown while being water baptized and die during the ritual? is a separate question.

 

[Wansvic]

That's scripture but note . also its written 1 John 5:8(KJV) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Yes. The NT rebirth becomes a reality upon obedience to the gospel preached by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. Belief in the shed blood of Jesus, obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit. (Acts 2:36-42)

 

[Wansvic]

Paul who was the genius apostle, was probably the first to understand the new baptism to be replacing the old baptism.

Since we now know there is only One Lord, one faith, one baptism?
Which baptism then is for the church?

Many believers today can be like Peter was.

In the beginning Peter was very SLOW to catch on to understand when something new was to replace
what had been traditionally accepted as a legalistic norm.

For example..
Its why we have Seventh Day Adventists who insist we are to keep the sabbath like those under the Law of Moses had done.

For some mysterious reason..
Some Christians will desire to be under a system of laws to live by.
Laws that act like a check list of things to do, to make one feel right with themself.

Leave them be.... As for the others?

'But continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To him be the glory, now and forever! Amen. " (2 Peter 3:18)​

That was written no less than by Peter, who had to learn that lesson the hard way.


grace and peace............

All those living in the New Testament are required to obey water baptism in the name of Jesus because of its association with His death, burial and resurrection. Baptism in the name of Jesus is a reference to water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture. (Acts 10:47-48, 1 Cor. 1:13)

Note the Acts 19 account confirms two separate experiences; one being water baptism, and the other receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost:

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


If what you say were true, that Peter was slow to understand then the same would have to apply to Paul. Clearly that is not the case as both men administered water baptism, AND assisted in people receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 16:28-33, 18:8, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

Paul who was the genius apostle, was probably the first to understand the new baptism to be replacing the old baptism.

Since we now know there is only One Lord, one faith, one baptism?
Which baptism then is for the church?

Many believers today can be like Peter was.

In the beginning Peter was very SLOW to catch on to understand when something new was to replace
what had been traditionally accepted as a legalistic norm.

For example..
Its why we have Seventh Day Adventists who insist we are to keep the sabbath like those under the Law of Moses had done.

For some mysterious reason..
Some Christians will desire to be under a system of laws to live by.
Laws that act like a check list of things to do, to make one feel right with themself.

Leave them be.... As for the others?

'But continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To him be the glory, now and forever! Amen. " (2 Peter 3:18)​

That was written no less than by Peter, who had to learn that lesson the hard way.


grace and peace............

The New Testament baptism started on the Day of Pentecost and will end when Jesus returns. It is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. That along with being filled with the Holy Ghost brings about the reality of the NT rebirth. Both Peter and Paul preached the same message (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Genez]

All those living in the New Testament are required to obey water baptism in the name of Jesus because of its association with His death, burial and resurrection. Baptism in the name of Jesus is a reference to water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture. (Acts 10:47-48, 1 Cor. 1:13)

Note the Acts 19 account confirms two separate experiences; one being water baptism, and the other receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost:

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


If what you say were true, that Peter was slow to understand then the same would have to apply to Paul. Clearly that is not the case as both men administered water baptism, AND assisted in people receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 16:28-33, 18:8, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Both Saul and Peter were Jews. Water baptism had been the well established norm for their thinking.
Keep in mind. John the Baptist was JEWISH!


People fail to realize that the Church age appeared out of nowhere and shocked many as it took everyone by surprise.
There was a need for a new learning curve! For it revolutionized the ways of thinking of those who had been comfortable
and well established in having been doing God's will until the big change (which came without notice) exploded upon them.

So.. sure! Peter and Paul would without hesitation been water baptizing according to the Jewish custom.

But, Peter who had been caught up in all the excitement previously finally realized what was going on only after water baptizing thousands..

​

​

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us ​

at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized ​

with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them ​

the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to ​

think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

​

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, ​

“So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Acts 11:15-18​

See that? Peter who had been following the old way, had to finally adjust to the new way!

Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water,
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ​

grace and peace!

 

[Wansvic]

Both Saul and Peter were Jews. Water baptism had been the well established norm for their thinking.
Keep in mind. John the Baptist was JEWISH!


People fail to realize that the Church age appeared out of nowhere and shocked many as it took everyone by surprise.
There was a need for a new learning curve! For it revolutionized the ways of thinking of those who had been comfortable
and well established in having been doing God's will until the big change (which came without notice) exploded upon them.

So.. sure! Peter and Paul would without hesitation been water baptizing according to the Jewish custom.

But, Peter who had been caught up in all the excitement previously finally realized what was going on only after water baptizing thousands..

​

​

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us ​

at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized ​

with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them ​

the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to ​

think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

​

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, ​

“So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Acts 11:15-18​

See that? Peter who had been following the old way, had to finally adjust to the new way!

Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water,
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ​

grace and peace!

You may want to act in accordance with your own words: (Post 875)

"I love you providing the chapter and verses to verify what you stated.
Now I can be corrected by the Word of God... (if that were the case)...
Thirdly, Paul was given a dispensation of God that was ‘kept secret since the world began’ and so could not be the same message associated with water baptism (Rom 16:25, 1 Cor 9:17, Gal 1:11-12)."


Acts 19:1-6 reveals, Paul was still baptizing individuals in water over 25+ years after the command was first given. The requirement to be baptized in water was never rescinded. The gospel message includes both water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

What if you die before water baptism?


..... what if you drown while being water baptized and die during the ritual?

​

How come no forum wiseguy thought of that one yet?​

Could make for a long 'intellectually stimulating' debate.....

There ain't no what ifs for everybody,

Associating a 1 in 1 million chance to how everybody should view scripture, is not only not wise,.but also pathetic
.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Just curious @Genez I haven't seen a response to this post I provided in answer your post. No thoughts?

This is a thread for people who believe water baptism is required for salvation, if you aren't that type of person, then obviously you don't need to answer this question, as I know you will just say the man is saved, as water isnt required.

Hypothetical situations that are often brought up by people to argue against baptismal regeneration are:

1. What about someone who is ill, about to die, cries out to God, asks Jesus to save them, will they die lost because they didn't have enough time to get baptized?

2. What about someone who is on a stranded island and has no one to baptize him, dies there, will he die lost?

In my opinion both of these arguments deserve a proper response, which is why I am making this thread. Give me your case, you who believe baptism in water is required for salvation.

PS I hope this thread isnt gonna turn into 50 responses and 0 answers and everyone just saying "Its not required for salvation because of such and such." I get it, I know the arguments both ways, but im just asking our baptismal regeneration people here to answer these. Thank you for understanding.

Different circumstances might prevent someone from being baptized, such as sudden death, health issues, or other unforeseen situations. The Christian tradition widely acknowledges that God's grace and mercy are comprehensive, taking into account the intentions and heart posture of individuals.

Jesus said He needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus said it so I want as much righteousness as I can get.

For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness: This statement by Jesus reveals the purpose behind His baptism. The phrase "to fulfil all righteousness" means to complete or accomplish everything that God considers right and necessary. For Jesus, being baptized by John was not about repentance for sin, since He was sinless, but about identifying with humanity and obeying God's will. It served as a model of righteousness for believers, an act of submission to God's plan, and a public affirmation of His messianic identity. Jesus' willingness to be baptized sets an example for His followers. It underscores the importance of obedience to God's commands and the value of baptism as an act of faith and initiation into the Christian community. Jesus' statement and His baptism serve multiple purposes: affirming His messianic identity, demonstrating obedience to God's will, and providing a model for believers. It highlights the importance of fulfilling God's righteous requirements and the significance of baptism as a symbol of repentance, cleansing, and commitment to God's will.

Acts 2:28 and Matthew 28:19 commands baptism. Romans explains the reason for it. In Acts Chapter 19 the disciples were re baptized in the name of Jesus. Their rebaptism in the name of the Lord Jesus signifies their acceptance of the full Christian faith.

So recap: Jesus said necessary to fulfill all righteousness, two separate books command it, book of romans explains it and even disciples were rebaptized. So much of the bible talks about. I believe it is necessary because that is how we show our identification in Christ. Apart from the special circumstances listed above, what do you think?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Different circumstances might prevent someone from being baptized, such as sudden death, health issues, or other unforeseen situations. The Christian tradition widely acknowledges that God's grace and mercy are comprehensive, taking into account the intentions and heart posture of individuals.

Jesus said He needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus said it so I want as much righteousness as I can get.

For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness: This statement by Jesus reveals the purpose behind His baptism. The phrase "to fulfil all righteousness" means to complete or accomplish everything that God considers right and necessary. For Jesus, being baptized by John was not about repentance for sin, since He was sinless, but about identifying with humanity and obeying God's will. It served as a model of righteousness for believers, an act of submission to God's plan, and a public affirmation of His messianic identity. Jesus' willingness to be baptized sets an example for His followers. It underscores the importance of obedience to God's commands and the value of baptism as an act of faith and initiation into the Christian community. Jesus' statement and His baptism serve multiple purposes: affirming His messianic identity, demonstrating obedience to God's will, and providing a model for believers. It highlights the importance of fulfilling God's righteous requirements and the significance of baptism as a symbol of repentance, cleansing, and commitment to God's will.

Acts 2:28 and Matthew 28:19 commands baptism. Romans explains the reason for it. In Acts Chapter 19 the disciples were re baptized in the name of Jesus. Their rebaptism in the name of the Lord Jesus signifies their acceptance of the full Christian faith.

So recap: Jesus said necessary to fulfill all righteousness, two separate books command it, book of romans explains it and even disciples were rebaptized. So much of the bible talks about. I believe it is necessary because that is how we show our identification in Christ. Apart from the special circumstances listed above, what do you think?

I said this to, but it made no difference,

 

[Wansvic]

Different circumstances might prevent someone from being baptized, such as sudden death, health issues, or other unforeseen situations. The Christian tradition widely acknowledges that God's grace and mercy are comprehensive, taking into account the intentions and heart posture of individuals.

Jesus said He needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus said it so I want as much righteousness as I can get.

For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness: This statement by Jesus reveals the purpose behind His baptism. The phrase "to fulfil all righteousness" means to complete or accomplish everything that God considers right and necessary. For Jesus, being baptized by John was not about repentance for sin, since He was sinless, but about identifying with humanity and obeying God's will. It served as a model of righteousness for believers, an act of submission to God's plan, and a public affirmation of His messianic identity. Jesus' willingness to be baptized sets an example for His followers. It underscores the importance of obedience to God's commands and the value of baptism as an act of faith and initiation into the Christian community. Jesus' statement and His baptism serve multiple purposes: affirming His messianic identity, demonstrating obedience to God's will, and providing a model for believers. It highlights the importance of fulfilling God's righteous requirements and the significance of baptism as a symbol of repentance, cleansing, and commitment to God's will.

Acts 2:28 and Matthew 28:19 commands baptism. Romans explains the reason for it. In Acts Chapter 19 the disciples were re baptized in the name of Jesus. Their rebaptism in the name of the Lord Jesus signifies their acceptance of the full Christian faith.

So recap: Jesus said necessary to fulfill all righteousness, two separate books command it, book of romans explains it and even disciples were rebaptized. So much of the bible talks about. I believe it is necessary because that is how we show our identification in Christ. Apart from the special circumstances listed above, what do you think?

Where our understanding differs is in the idea that water baptism is merely a symbol.

In the Roman's scripture below, Paul confirmed that a spiritual reality takes place upon obedience to baptism. Those who obey the command are in fact buried with Jesus. Water baptism is an element of the NT rebirth, the other is being indwelt by the Holy Ghost. (John 3:3-5, Rom. 8:9, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

By God's design those who have been buried with Jesus via water baptism have their sins destroyed. (verse 6) This confirms water baptism is not just done as a public display. In addition, Paul makes a crucial point in verse 5. Only those who have been planted together with Jesus shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 3:3-6

 

[jamessb]

Where our understanding differs is in the idea that water baptism is merely a symbol.

In the Roman's scripture below, Paul confirmed that a spiritual reality takes place upon obedience to baptism. Those who obey the command are in fact buried with Jesus. Water baptism is an element of the NT rebirth, the other is being indwelt by the Holy Ghost. (John 3:3-5, Rom. 8:9, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

By God's design those who have been buried with Jesus via water baptism have their sins destroyed. (verse 6) This confirms water baptism is not just done as a public display. In addition, Paul makes a crucial point in verse 5. Only those who have been planted together with Jesus shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 3:3-6

If you're born of the Spirit, you are a new creation. Water baptism is a symbolic statement only. It is not necessary for salvation. Once you're born, you're born! That holds true for natural birth and spiritual birth.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Where our understanding differs is in the idea that water baptism is merely a symbol.

By God's design those who have been buried with Jesus via water baptism have their sins destroyed. (verse 6) This confirms water baptism is not just done as a public display.

I never meant it to come across that it was merely (a word I didn't use by the way) a symbol. I believe if Jesus got baptized for righteousness and he commands it, why wouldn't everyone want to follow His example. I also believe Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

for the forgiveness of sins (εις ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, eis aphesin hamartiōn): * εις (eis): This preposition can have various meanings, but here it often signifies "for the purpose of" or "resulting in."

I said it is a symbol -- not only a symbol. When replying to someone's post be careful not to put words they didn't say. (This is not meant to be mean, just caution in the future.)

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul's message in this verse underscores a core Christian doctrine: through faith in Christ and participation in baptism, believers die to their old, sinful selves and are reborn into a new life modeled after Jesus' resurrection. It's about transformation and renewal, emphasizing the believer's spiritual rebirth and the hope of eternal life.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

What if you die before water baptism?

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:37.38
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I'm not saying one does not first repent, believe, and confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. This is of course the first thing one does for initial salvation. Without doing this, one can get dunked in the water all they want and that does not make them saved.

After initial salvation, the Lord instructs us to be baptized which is a public demonstration and public acknowledgement before others that we are dead with Him and are raised up together unto new life.... it is making a covenant with the Lord when we are baptized, making a commitment, making a promise to turn from our old life unto living for Him.

This process is the starting point for us to start walking in newness of life, having a clean conscience toward God which is what actually saves us. Being dunked in water itself is not the moment one becomes born again as we should already be born again before getting baptized.

As mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21, having a clean conscience toward God having accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, having confessed out sins before the Lord is what saves us.

Now... as we see the thief on the Cross next to Jesus acknowledge the Lord as His Savior (Luke 23:39-43)... and Jesus told this man that he was going to paradise, if one finds themselves in a situation where it's not possible to get water baptized, then they will still be saved if they have truly been born again.

Apart from this, we are required to be baptized because God's tells us to be water baptized in His Word.

Those having opportunity to be baptized and choose to disobey God's Word are disobeying the Gospel and the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience (knowingly disobeying the Lord is an evil desire, see Colossians 3:5,6).

Through the faith of the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) through water baptism are we raised up in newness of life (Romans 6:4) to have a clean conscience towards the Lord to walk with Him and we will be saved IF we endure until the end of our life abiding IN Christ.

In conclusion, if one has opportunity to be baptized and chooses to ignore and disobey Mark 16:16, Acts 2:37.38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:11-13, and Romans 6:4...then the after life is not going to be as they think.