Rapture timing matters?

[Chaplain_Sam456]

I was pretrib for 40 years, like everybody else I knew, until I looked again to confirm my choice and discovered the prewrath rapture sitting right in plain sight. I never considered a believers view of Rapture timing to be that important - until I realized the Body of Christ alive at the End Times, would be here for Seals One through Six. Meaning the deception of the false Savior of the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th Week, the Antichrist in the temple saying he is god, the mandatory Mark of the Great Tribulation, until the rescue from above after the Sixth Seal.

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing and the prewrath prepares believers to "endure to the end."

So how can I remain silent like all my pretrib friends want?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Many of us believe that scripture is saying that the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin (2Th2:9a) is when he is "revealed" (vv.3b,6,8a), that is, at the START of the 7-yr period, rather than at the [later] point when he does the "who SITTETH in the temple of God" thing (mid-trib), per 2Th2:4b.

Meaning, he is "revealed" at the FIRST Seal (which is when Paul acknowledged is when "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES, like he says in 1Th5:1-3... where he says that that time-period ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... i.e. what Jesus had already spoken of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 as the INITIAL ONE of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" when He pointed out, specifically, in that verse "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"... (the SEALS being EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS"... so the initial one [i.e. "the man of sin"] being at the START of the 7-yr period, not at its MID-point nor at its end-point. This correlates precisely with all other related passages, by the way.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ With nearly 50 years of study on this subject under my belt (just sharing as fact, not as a means of boasting), what I see is that Seals 1-7 and Trumpets 1-4 (all of that) are what make up the FIRST HALF of the seven year period; with the "FIFTH Trumpet / First Woe unto the earth" marking the MID-trib point of the chronology.
I've not found any other chronology to be convincing, in all those years of discussing this with other believers.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

I believe the world leader of Seal One does not become the Antichrist until after the deadly head wound, Satan enters into him, and it appears he rises from his deathbed. Then he attacks Jerusalem and enters the temple to declare himself to be god. This is the revealing spoken of in Scripture.

Thank you for adding to our conversation and I know many good and godly people who would agree with your view.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

Right now I see Seals 1 - 4 in the first 3.5 years. Seal 5 beginning at the midpoint with the Antichrist in the temple and the false prophet making the Mark mandatory. Until the 6th Seal is opened and the Body of Christ is rescued right in front of the whole world. We all stand in Heaven with God while the 7th Seal is opened and we are all silent for 30 minutes as we recognize the Day of God's fierce anger is going to be poured out. Then we return to Earth with Christ on the heals of the Bowl judgments to finish all the promises God made to us.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Ah yes, I've heard that take on it as well (referring to your Post #4).

The way I understand it is that there is both "an individual [person]" aspect and a "governmental aspect" of the "BEAST" (Rev13:1,5-7)... so that it is not the "individual [person]" aspect that "as it were wounded to death" ("one of its heads"... the beast "having SEVEN HEADS and ten horns"--that aspect is not the "individual [person]" aspect, but the "[wider] governmental aspect" of said "beast").

I do understand why many want to view it as happening to "an individual [man]," but I disagree that this is what the texts inform us about the matter... as I hopefully explained well enough (though briefly, here).







[Rev17:8 also shows this perspective, where it says, "when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]"--this is not the "individual [person]" aspect (of the "beast"), but the wider/[far-]longer-term aspect]

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

Yes, I acknowledge that possible interpretation also.

I see the timeline of the Book of Revelation as a template that I can hold up in front of my eyes to see what is happening in our world. I look to see what fits and I am willing to adjust my opinion about world events as time goes forward. What I see today will be adjusted to what happens tomorrow and how it fits.

I believe this is the end time gift God has given us to "see into our future" because He wanted us to know ahead of time so we would keep our faith to the end.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing...

That is incorrect. The imminent return of Christ for the Church means every believer needs to be ready to meet Him and to face the Judgement Seat of Christ. If you go through the NT carefully you will note that (1) Christ Himself told us to be ready since He could return at any moment for His Bride, and (2) Christians in the apostolic churches all expected His coming during their lifetimes. Paul alludes to this over and over again.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

It is my personal view the Bible teaching us to always being prepared to meet Christ at any moment is because we don't know when our life will end. According to my understanding of what the Bible says, the Rapture doesn't become imminent until the Antichrist is revealed at the midpoint of the 70th Week of Daniel. Just like Jesus said in Matthew 24, Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2, and John said in Revelation 6. Even the saints who were killed in the 5th Seal were waiting for the Rapture and wrath to happen.

 

[Adstar]

I was pretrib for 40 years, like everybody else I knew, until I looked again to confirm my choice and discovered the prewrath rapture sitting right in plain sight. I never considered a believers view of Rapture timing to be that important - until I realized the Body of Christ alive at the End Times, would be here for Seals One through Six. Meaning the deception of the false Savior of the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th Week, the Antichrist in the temple saying he is god, the mandatory Mark of the Great Tribulation, until the rescue from above after the Sixth Seal.

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing and the prewrath prepares believers to "endure to the end."

So how can I remain silent like all my pretrib friends want?

The first time i ever ehard about the rapture it was the pre-tribulation version.. But i soon found out that the rapture happens on the day of the second coming of Jesus and that pre-tribulation rapture is an escapist doctrine that sounds good to the ear but is not based on a false interpretation of scriptures..

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Even the saints who were killed in the 5th Seal were waiting for the Rapture and wrath to happen.

Yeah, I disagree (that they are "waiting for the rapture"), in that, I believe that the saints shown as having died/been martyred by [/before] the 5th Seal, are those who'd been killed/martyred IN / DURING / WITHIN the time-period we call the "7 years," namely within the first portion, i.e. martyred during "the BEGINNING of birth pangS [plural]"[/SEALS (to 5th one at this point)], which I believe would therefore INCLUDE what Matt13:12 says, "Now the brother shall betray the brother TO DEATH, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be PUT TO DEATH" (then v.14 tells of the later [but not much later] AOD mid-point [note: again, I believe the man of sin will have already been "revealed" at Seal #1, i.e. when "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," per Paul's 1Th5:1-3 [and elsewhere], i.e. Seal #1).








[note: I believe that Rev1:1's "to SHOW unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST COME TO PASS IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1), speaking of the "future" aspects of the book, necessarily must include all of the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS within that "7 year period" we commonly call the Trib; That "7-yr period" is the first aspect OF "the Day of the Lord" very-lengthy time-period (the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will not step one inch into! ); but "the DOTL" goes on to ALSO INCLUDE the entire MK age]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 is saying,

"1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by [G5228 - hyper / huper - "M. Vincent, "5228 (hypér) signifies something like 'in the interests of the truth . . . concerning' "] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together [episynagoges] unto him [i.e. all about "our Rapture" here in v.1],
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled [throeō - "2360 throéō (from throos, "clamor, tumult") – properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)"], neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that [/purporting that] the day of Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" (i.e. that the TRIB [involving Seal #1+] has ALREADY STARTED at some point in the past, "PERFECT indicative").

THAT was the "false claim" v.2 which Paul's Subject (v.1) is countering.






The false claim (v.2) is being addressed [as a matter] to the Thessalonians (by Paul) by his saying, "we beseech you... BY / IN THE INTERESTS OF THE TRUTH CONCERNING" our Rapture [IN THE AIR], not to be persuaded [deceived] by anyone trying to convince you that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" (that the TRIB has started already--which would be a perfectly BELIEVEABLE "troubling" thing for them to have been persuaded was true [tho false!] BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING very negative "persecutionS and tribulationS YE ENDURE" they were experiencing--2Th1:4 [they were not being duped by something with ZERO evidence!]).

IOW, the FALSE CLAIM (v.2) didn't entail anything other than "[purporting] THAT the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" (i.e. that the TRIB / SEAL #1+ had ALREADY STARTED at a point in time past, with its effects continuing on into the present ["PERFECT indicative"]). It wasn't present / it hadn't started

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

Many people agree the 5th Seal martyrs could include all Christians from all time.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

Many people agree the 5th Seal martyrs could include all Christians from all time, but they haven't received their new bodies yet so not only are they crying out to God asking when the wrath comes, but they are holding the robes waiting for "in the twinkling on an eye ... new heavenly bodies" which is the rapture "dead in Christ rise first" right before the wrath falls.

 

[Karlon]

I was pretrib for 40 years, like everybody else I knew, until I looked again to confirm my choice and discovered the prewrath rapture sitting right in plain sight. I never considered a believers view of Rapture timing to be that important - until I realized the Body of Christ alive at the End Times, would be here for Seals One through Six. Meaning the deception of the false Savior of the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th Week, the Antichrist in the temple saying he is god, the mandatory Mark of the Great Tribulation, until the rescue from above after the Sixth Seal.

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing and the prewrath prepares believers to "endure to the end."

So how can I remain silent like all my pretrib friends want?

supplemental to your post: 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelation 3:10, 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, 1st Thessalonians 5:9 & Romans 5:8,9.

 

[Jimbone]

Many of us believe that scripture is saying that the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin (2Th2:9a) is when he is "revealed" (vv.3b,6,8a), that is, at the START of the 7-yr period, rather than at the [later] point when he does the "who SITTETH in the temple of God" thing (mid-trib), per 2Th2:4b.

Meaning, he is "revealed" at the FIRST Seal (which is when Paul acknowledged is when "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES, like he says in 1Th5:1-3... where he says that that time-period ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... i.e. what Jesus had already spoken of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 as the INITIAL ONE of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" when He pointed out, specifically, in that verse "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"... (the SEALS being EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS"... so the initial one [i.e. "the man of sin"] being at the START of the 7-yr period, not at its MID-point nor at its end-point. This correlates precisely with all other related passages, by the way.)

See, this is a perfect example of how one must add to scripture to make it say what you need it to say, and mean what you need it to mean, especially when dealing with this topic. The fact that it takes your whole comment to explain this to me-
"9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders"
Is suspect to me off the bat. Is this not "adding"?

The fact that you have to "clear up" SO much in order for me to understand it to mean what you need/want it to mean is a huge red flag in my opinion. When I read the text alone, I don't walk away with what you wrote. To be honest when I read it I see Paul writing to THEM, telling THEM that "when THEY" see, for "THEM" not to be deceived. I do not see it saying ANYTHING at all about "passing this down for those who will need it generations later". He's saying to THEM, "You look, YOU watch, YOU don't be deceived, because when YOU see these things."

Without bringing the idea of "future to us" TO the text I just don't see it at all. That's not the way to read His word, we don't "bring to" the text. We should be "pulling from".

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is assuring the believers, they have NOT missed the Rapture for that DAY will not come until the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist happens first. Their fear was the persecution was so bad, false teachers were saying they were experiencing the wrath of God. Just like today, false teachers are trying to convince believers that tribulation is God's wrath. Later in the passage Paul assures them there is a restrainer holding back the Antichrist until God determines the time. Paul says God is in control of all things and will rescue them before God's wrath just like Paul had previously taught them.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

The Day of the Lord (God's wrath) comes like a thief in the night, just like the rapture. That is because the rapture happens on the same day as the wrath begins. The Saints go up and the wrath comes down. The only thing between the rapture and the wrath is the Seventh Seal of 30 minutes. That is why Scripture always refers to the Day of the Lord's wrath and the rapture with the same term "like a thief in the night." Only the believers will not be surprised and will be expecting it. The unbelievers who are taking the Mark and being promised "peace and safety" by the Antichrist will be the ones totally caught off guard.

 

[Chaplain_Sam456]

supplemental to your post: 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelation 3:10, 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, 1st Thessalonians 5:9 & Romans 5:8,9.

The rapture, the promise to be kept from hour of testing written to a specific church, the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, we are saved from his wrath.

Of course all Scripture must be harmonized to come to any conclusion and the prewrath view is in complete harmony with all of these verses. All you have to do is realize God's wrath starts with the First Trumpet. Tribulation and persecution are NOT God's wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The rapture, the promise to be kept from hour of testing written to a specific church

I'm not really sure what the point is that you are conveying here ^ ,

I just wanted to point out to those reading this thread, that 7 times in chpts 2-3 it states,

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]

Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]

Rev 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]

Rev 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.






[so what He "saith" under each heading is ultimately intended for more than just that individual "church of _____" (individually / alone)]