Rapture timing matters?

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Johann

Johann

Active member
#41
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#41
Nehemiah6 said:
The Rapture and the Second Coming are two very different events, but there are some who wish to make them one and the same event. And that is the source of a lot of confusion.
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Arguments for and against the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event are rooted in differing interpretations of Scripture.
Arguments For the unity of the Rapture and the Second Coming:
Some interpreters suggest that the Greek word harpazō, translated as "catch up" or "take away" in the context of the Rapture, implies a single event rather than two discrete events

Proponents of this view point to texts that appear to combine the ideas of the Rapture and the Second Coming, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which states that the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, accompanied by the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, and then meets the believers in the air

Those supporting this position argue that the Rapture and the Second Coming are closely connected, with the former serving as a prelude to the latter

Arguments Against the unity of the Rapture and the Second Coming:
The Rapture and the Second Coming are distinguished by several factors, including the location where believers encounter Christ (air versus earth), the purpose of the events (deliverance versus judgment), and the timing (imminent versus sequential)

The order of events outlined in Scripture suggests that the Rapture precedes the Second Coming, with the Rapture occurring before the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming taking place afterward

Interpretations that equate the Rapture and the Second Coming face difficulties in explaining specific details of Scripture, such as the need for a separate resurrection event at the Rapture

Critics of the unity view argue that the distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming is essential for maintaining the integrity of Scripture and avoiding contradictions. On the other hand, proponents maintain that combining the two events offers a coherent and consistent reading of Scripture. These debates highlight the complexity of interpreting end-times prophecy and underscore the importance of careful exegesis and consideration of the entirety of Scripture.
J.
 
O

Omegatime

Well-known member
#43
Apr 29, 2023
1,193
433
83
Pennsylvania
#43
Chaplain_Sam456 said:
I was pretrib for 40 years, like everybody else I knew, until I looked again to confirm my choice and discovered the prewrath rapture sitting right in plain sight. I never considered a believers view of Rapture timing to be that important - until I realized the Body of Christ alive at the End Times, would be here for Seals One through Six. Meaning the deception of the false Savior of the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th Week, the Antichrist in the temple saying he is god, the mandatory Mark of the Great Tribulation, until the rescue from above after the Sixth Seal.

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing and the prewrath prepares believers to "endure to the end."

So how can I remain silent like all my pretrib friends want?
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Pre-wrath might sound good to you but i consider you wrong.

Many pieces but look at the 2300 days in Daniel 8

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to the one that spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled under foot?”[b] 14 And he said to him,[c] “For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

The Seal Judgements are 30 days in duration--210 days
The Trumpet Judgements are 5 months each---1050
This takes us to the middle of the 7----210 plus 1050 = 1260 days
7 year Tribulation is 2520 days and substract 2300 days is the time the antichrist is in Israel

The wrath in Seal 6 is speaking when the antichrist will begin his journey showing how chistlike he is.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#45
#45
I've studied pretrib, midtrib, and post-trib my whole Christian life. To me, I could never find enough Scriptural evidence to determine a biblical absolute conclusion. I never heard of prewrath before.

When I found it, sitting right there in Jesus words, matching the 6th Seal, and the Day of the Lord wrath statements in the OT, I finally found the exact placement of the elusive event.

I was so excited to have found the truth, but no matter how clear it is to me now, fellow believers can't see it.

This placement of the Rapture, after the 6th Seal, cutting short the Great Tribulation at an unknown day and hour, doesn't clear up every single event order question in the Book of Revelation, but it sure puts a major piece in place.

It amazes me fellow believers can't see it.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#46
#46
Omegatime said:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-wrath might sound good to you but i consider you wrong.

Many pieces but look at the 2300 days in Daniel 8

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to the one that spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled under foot?”[b] 14 And he said to him,[c] “For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

The Seal Judgements are 30 days in duration--210 days
The Trumpet Judgements are 5 months each---1050
This takes us to the middle of the 7----210 plus 1050 = 1260 days
7 year Tribulation is 2520 days and substract 2300 days is the time the antichrist is in Israel

The wrath in Seal 6 is speaking when the antichrist will begin his journey showing how chistlike he is.
Click to expand...
Complete conjecture.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#47
#47
Johann said:
Arguments for and against the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event are rooted in differing interpretations of Scripture.
Arguments For the unity of the Rapture and the Second Coming:
Some interpreters suggest that the Greek word harpazō, translated as "catch up" or "take away" in the context of the Rapture, implies a single event rather than two discrete events

Proponents of this view point to texts that appear to combine the ideas of the Rapture and the Second Coming, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which states that the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, accompanied by the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, and then meets the believers in the air

Those supporting this position argue that the Rapture and the Second Coming are closely connected, with the former serving as a prelude to the latter

Arguments Against the unity of the Rapture and the Second Coming:
The Rapture and the Second Coming are distinguished by several factors, including the location where believers encounter Christ (air versus earth), the purpose of the events (deliverance versus judgment), and the timing (imminent versus sequential)

The order of events outlined in Scripture suggests that the Rapture precedes the Second Coming, with the Rapture occurring before the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming taking place afterward

Interpretations that equate the Rapture and the Second Coming face difficulties in explaining specific details of Scripture, such as the need for a separate resurrection event at the Rapture

Critics of the unity view argue that the distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming is essential for maintaining the integrity of Scripture and avoiding contradictions. On the other hand, proponents maintain that combining the two events offers a coherent and consistent reading of Scripture. These debates highlight the complexity of interpreting end-times prophecy and underscore the importance of careful exegesis and consideration of the entirety of Scripture.
J.
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I believe the Second Coming is the Rapture (catching up of the believers) to meet Jesus in the clouds. His promise was to come and get us before the wrath is poured out on Earth.

The return to Earth with us at the Battle of Armageddon is the culmination of the Day of the Lord's wrath on those who rejected Him to set up His 1000 year reign.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#48
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#48
Chaplain_Sam456 said:
I've studied pretrib, midtrib, and post-trib my whole Christian life. To me, I could never find enough Scriptural evidence to determine a biblical absolute conclusion. I never heard of prewrath before.

When I found it, sitting right there in Jesus words, matching the 6th Seal, and the Day of the Lord wrath statements in the OT, I finally found the exact placement of the elusive event.

I was so excited to have found the truth, but no matter how clear it is to me now, fellow believers can't see it.

This placement of the Rapture, after the 6th Seal, cutting short the Great Tribulation at an unknown day and hour, doesn't clear up every single event order question in the Book of Revelation, but it sure puts a major piece in place.

It amazes me fellow believers can't see it.
Click to expand...
I respect that you say you have studied most of your life this topic. Many of us have. Can you tell me where the Church is after Chapter Four of Revelation? Judgment starts with the church, does it not? What was Jesus saying to the churches in chapters 1-3?

Where do they go after chapter 4?
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#50
#50
Acts 2:16-21. The bookends of the Church. From the pouring out of the Spirit to the 3 part cosmic sign when the Church is gathered to Christ in the clouds.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#51
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#51
Chaplain_Sam456 said:
I believe the Second Coming is the Rapture (catching up of the believers) to meet Jesus in the clouds. His promise was to come and get us before the wrath is poured out on Earth.

The return to Earth with us at the Battle of Armageddon is the culmination of the Day of the Lord's wrath on those who rejected Him to set up His 1000 year reign.
Click to expand...
Ok, so those Bowls of Judgment from GOD are not the Wrath of God poured out?
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#52
#52
CS1 said:
I respect that you say you have studied most of your life this topic. Many of us have. Can you tell me where the Church is after Chapter Four of Revelation? Judgment starts with the church, does it not? What was Jesus saying to the churches in chapters 1-3?

Where do they go after chapter 4?
Click to expand...
The Body of Christ is all over the events after chapter 4, but pretrib teaches the word Church is missing so all the Christians spoken about are Tribulation Saints. In my opinion, this is made up to make pretrib true.

The real description of the Rapture was described by Jesus and matches the 6th Seal. Then in Revelation 7, you see the just raptured Body of Christ in Heaven.

Pretrib has type of Rapture and type of Church in Heaven.

Prewrath has the actual events.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#53
#53
CS1 said:
Ok, so those Bowls of Judgment from GOD are not the Wrath of God poured out?
Click to expand...
Yes, the Trumpet and Bowl judgments are the wrath of God. I believe the Bowl judgments are the "battle" part of the Battle of Armageddon.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#54
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#54
Chaplain_Sam456 said:
The Body of Christ is all over the events after chapter 4, but pretrib teaches the word Church is missing so all the Christians spoken about are Tribulation Saints. In my opinion, this is made up to make pretrib true.

The real description of the Rapture was described by Jesus and matches the 6th Seal. Then in Revelation 7, you see the just raptured Body of Christ in Heaven.

Pretrib has type of Rapture and type of Church on Heaven.

Prewrath has the actual events.
Click to expand...
please show me with Scripture the church after chapter 4 of Revelation.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#55
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#55
Chaplain_Sam456 said:
Yes, the Trumpet and Bowl judgments are the wrath of God. I believe the Bowl judgments are the "battle" part of the Battle of Armageddon.
Click to expand...
what do you do with the description of the action that happens when each bowl is poured out?

How do you reconcile what you believe is a battle of Armageddon when the text doesn't show that ?
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#56
#56
CS1 said:
lol, like calling the kettle black
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Seeing the Rapture after the 6th Seal is not conjecture.

If only the pretrib argument dismissing Jesus words in Matthew 24 could be removed instead of what Jesus said - you could see it also.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#57
#57
CS1 said:
please show me with Scripture the church after chapter 4 of Revelation.
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One of many.

Revelation 13:7 NKJV
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#58
#58
CS1 said:
what do you do with the description of the action that happens when each bowl is poured out?

How do you reconcile what you believe is a battle of Armageddon when the text doesn't show that ?
Click to expand...
Sorry I'm not sure what you are asking?
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#59
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#59
CS1 said:
Ok, so those Bowls of Judgment from GOD are not the Wrath of God poured out?
Click to expand...
The bowls of judgment described in Revelation 15 and 16 are not explicitly referred to as the wrath of God being poured out. Rather, they represent the final acts of judgment prior to the establishment of God's kingdom on Earth. While the wrath of God is present in these chapters, it is not the focus. The primary emphasis is on the complete and final defeat of Satan and his forces, leading to the restoration of creation and the inauguration of the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21:1).
To understand the distinction between the bowls of judgment and the wrath of God, it helps to examine the broader context of the book of Revelation and the biblical themes related to the wrath of God. The wrath of God is presented as a response to sin and rebellion, particularly in the Old Testament, where it is associated with God's covenantal dealings with Israel (Exod. 32:10; Deut. 9:14; Rom. 1:18)

. In contrast, the bowls of judgment in Revelation are part of the eschaton—the culminating events of history—where God establishes his reign and defeats the powers of darkness once and for all

Therefore, while the bowls of judgment involve aspects of God's wrath, they are not identical to the wrath of God being poured out. They are part of the larger narrative of God's plan for creation, which ultimately ends in victory and renewal.

J.
 
C

Chaplain_Sam456

Guest
#60
#60
Johann said:
The bowls of judgment described in Revelation 15 and 16 are not explicitly referred to as the wrath of God being poured out. Rather, they represent the final acts of judgment prior to the establishment of God's kingdom on Earth. While the wrath of God is present in these chapters, it is not the focus. The primary emphasis is on the complete and final defeat of Satan and his forces, leading to the restoration of creation and the inauguration of the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21:1).
To understand the distinction between the bowls of judgment and the wrath of God, it helps to examine the broader context of the book of Revelation and the biblical themes related to the wrath of God. The wrath of God is presented as a response to sin and rebellion, particularly in the Old Testament, where it is associated with God's covenantal dealings with Israel (Exod. 32:10; Deut. 9:14; Rom. 1:18)

. In contrast, the bowls of judgment in Revelation are part of the eschaton—the culminating events of history—where God establishes his reign and defeats the powers of darkness once and for all

Therefore, while the bowls of judgment involve aspects of God's wrath, they are not identical to the wrath of God being poured out. They are part of the larger narrative of God's plan for creation, which ultimately ends in victory and renewal.

J.
Click to expand...
Plainly the Wrath of God.

Revelation 16:5-6 NKJV
And I heard the angel of the waters saying: "You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. [6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
 
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