Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

Words matter to God. The word is only used 4 times. Period.

The word was used in the beginning, God created mankind to be as multiple as the stars,

He also predestined this

So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”


Would you like some more stories of being predestinated 😊

 

[Johann]

27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your counsel had limited beforehand to happen.

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I rather prefer the KJV-

predestined to occur -- "To occur" (ginesthai) is a different verb than the one translated "to do" (poiesai). The later speaks of man's agency, the former of God's providence. The Gentiles and Jews, the government and religious officials, who took part in His crucifixion were acting of their own free will, yet they were doing just as God had planned what would happen.

Which brings us back to-

προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

Which you were saying is "rather misleading"

Shalom
J.

 

[Cameron143]

They were paid for by Christ, but was not applied because of unbelief.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Is unbelief a sin? Wasn't that paid for? So people who's sins are paid for end up in hell? And that is just?

 

[Cameron143]

What was satisfied by God was that our sins had to be dealt with completely by His Justice.

All of mankind's sins sins had to be placed onto a perfect substitute container (Jesus sinless body).

Jesus' body was the only body that it was safe to be made the target for the placement and judgment of our sins.
But? If Jesus ever sinned Himself while bearing our sins?
He would have dematerialized! And, all creation with Him would ceased existing.

"He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Colossians 1:17​

No fallen man could have done the work that Jesus did.
For if it were a regular man? When the first sin was imputed?
That man would have instantly died and sent to Hell.
Our sins could not have been paid for by anyone (and be able to live) but the Sinless Man Jesus Christ!

I don't disagree with anything here. But a propitiation satisfies some demand of an aggrieved party. God's wrath is what had to be satisfied. Thus the need for Christ, who being fully man could be our substitute, and fully God could atone for our sins.
But God doesn't forgive sins without exacting a payment for them. Otherwise, He would be unjust.

 

[Johann]

I don't disagree with anything here. But a propitiation satisfies some demand of an aggrieved party. God's wrath is what had to be satisfied. Thus the need for Christ, who being fully man could be our substitute, and fully God could atone for our sins.
But God doesn't forgive sins without exacting a payment for them. Otherwise, He would be unjust.

ISMS AND SCHISMS
“When is a Christian Not a Christian”
“When is a church Not The CHURCH
The Sects and Cults of Christendom

ISMS AND SCHISMS
INTRODUCTION BY J. C. O’HAIR

With all the sectarianism and confusion in Christendom, with the so-called Christian
Religion torn asunder with division and strife, we may well ask what the end is to be. “Is Christ
divided?” “That there should be no schism in the Body.”

Every student of history knows something of the bitter controversy and the irreconcilable
differences that have existed for centuries between Roman Catholics and Evangelical Christians.

There is no hope for a peaceful settlement of this controversy. Evangelical Christians with Holy
Spirit Scriptural convictions, cannot compromise with the Roman Catholics who claim to be the
exclusive custodians and dispensers of the true Christian religion. The Roman Catholic’s own
special Bible (the Douay Translation) condemns their unscriptural papacy, priesthood, eucharist
and ritualism. And surely no one is expecting the Roman Catholics to concede that they are the
heretics and to seek reconciliation with the Protestants in an agreement to preach and practice
Evangelical Christianity.

Presently we shall examine the creed, some of the doctrines and practices of the Roman
Catholic Church in the light of the Holy Scriptures. But all spiritually-minded Christians know
that the unpleasant division, defined as “Catholicism” and “Protestantism,” must continue to the
end of the age, even though the Romanists, in plain disobedience to their own Scriptures, (II
Corinthians 10:4), may again resort to carnal weapons and physical force in their endeavor to
make converts of the Protestant heretics.

The “sectarianism” in Protestantism is pitiable and deplorable.

There are several varieties
of Baptists, several varieties of Disciples, several varieties of Presbyterians, Methodists,
Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Reformed denominations. The Methodists are subdivided into the
M. E. Methodists, the Free Methodists, the Methodist Protestants. The United Brethren, the
Dunkard Brethren, the Plymouth Brethren (with more than a dozen divisions), the
Congregationalists, the Nazarenes, the Moravians, the Pentecostalists, the Mennonites, the
Swedish Covenant and Free Churches, the Evangelicals. Then there are hundreds of so-called
independent fundamental movements.

For many years Evangelical Christians have had an open enemy in “Unitarianism.”

Now
the Unitarians declare they are ready to withdraw from the battle, because they have succeeded
in “Unitarianizing” many of the Baptists, the Methodists, the Episcopalians, the Presbyterians,
and especially the Congregationalists. “Evangelical” agnostic theologians in the seminaries are
turning out many other Christianized agnostics; young preachers who are called “Liberals,” or
“Modernists.”

Even the Free Thinkers’ Monthly of New York City has acknowledged that these
Modernists in Evangelical pulpits are accomplishing far more for the cause of atheism than all of
the atheistic societies of the land. Many of these so-called “Evangelical Liberals” are either
secretly, or openly, propagating Russian Communism. Modernism is growing by leaps and
bounds and, with the present sowing of infidelity, in the name of Christianity with Christian
phraseology, with the pretense of the use of the Bible as a text-book, we surely must be asking:
“What will the harvest be?” No more subtle enemy of true Bible Christianity has ever been on
this earth than “Modernism,” which is not Christian but anti-Christian. A Christian infidel is an
impossible paradox.
Not only are true Bible Christians in the conflict with “Ritualism” and “Modernism,” but
also with “Fanaticism” of every kind.

Just thought I'd throw this in-we are in a warfare.

Shalom
J.

 

[Cameron143]

ISMS AND SCHISMS
“When is a Christian Not a Christian”
“When is a church Not The CHURCH
The Sects and Cults of Christendom

ISMS AND SCHISMS
INTRODUCTION BY J. C. O’HAIR

With all the sectarianism and confusion in Christendom, with the so-called Christian
Religion torn asunder with division and strife, we may well ask what the end is to be. “Is Christ
divided?” “That there should be no schism in the Body.”

Every student of history knows something of the bitter controversy and the irreconcilable
differences that have existed for centuries between Roman Catholics and Evangelical Christians.

There is no hope for a peaceful settlement of this controversy. Evangelical Christians with Holy
Spirit Scriptural convictions, cannot compromise with the Roman Catholics who claim to be the
exclusive custodians and dispensers of the true Christian religion. The Roman Catholic’s own
special Bible (the Douay Translation) condemns their unscriptural papacy, priesthood, eucharist
and ritualism. And surely no one is expecting the Roman Catholics to concede that they are the
heretics and to seek reconciliation with the Protestants in an agreement to preach and practice
Evangelical Christianity.

Presently we shall examine the creed, some of the doctrines and practices of the Roman
Catholic Church in the light of the Holy Scriptures. But all spiritually-minded Christians know
that the unpleasant division, defined as “Catholicism” and “Protestantism,” must continue to the
end of the age, even though the Romanists, in plain disobedience to their own Scriptures, (II
Corinthians 10:4), may again resort to carnal weapons and physical force in their endeavor to
make converts of the Protestant heretics.

The “sectarianism” in Protestantism is pitiable and deplorable.

There are several varieties
of Baptists, several varieties of Disciples, several varieties of Presbyterians, Methodists,
Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Reformed denominations. The Methodists are subdivided into the
M. E. Methodists, the Free Methodists, the Methodist Protestants. The United Brethren, the
Dunkard Brethren, the Plymouth Brethren (with more than a dozen divisions), the
Congregationalists, the Nazarenes, the Moravians, the Pentecostalists, the Mennonites, the
Swedish Covenant and Free Churches, the Evangelicals. Then there are hundreds of so-called
independent fundamental movements.

For many years Evangelical Christians have had an open enemy in “Unitarianism.”

Now
the Unitarians declare they are ready to withdraw from the battle, because they have succeeded
in “Unitarianizing” many of the Baptists, the Methodists, the Episcopalians, the Presbyterians,
and especially the Congregationalists. “Evangelical” agnostic theologians in the seminaries are
turning out many other Christianized agnostics; young preachers who are called “Liberals,” or
“Modernists.”

Even the Free Thinkers’ Monthly of New York City has acknowledged that these
Modernists in Evangelical pulpits are accomplishing far more for the cause of atheism than all of
the atheistic societies of the land. Many of these so-called “Evangelical Liberals” are either
secretly, or openly, propagating Russian Communism. Modernism is growing by leaps and
bounds and, with the present sowing of infidelity, in the name of Christianity with Christian
phraseology, with the pretense of the use of the Bible as a text-book, we surely must be asking:
“What will the harvest be?” No more subtle enemy of true Bible Christianity has ever been on
this earth than “Modernism,” which is not Christian but anti-Christian. A Christian infidel is an
impossible paradox.
Not only are true Bible Christians in the conflict with “Ritualism” and “Modernism,” but
also with “Fanaticism” of every kind.

Just thought I'd throw this in-we are in a warfare.

Shalom
J.

We are certainly a long way from achieving a unity of the faith.
In answer to when is a Christian not a Christian? Before he has taken the Christian vitamin...B1.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Ding ding, This one is a full right cross, aha

Oh yes there is hope for peace.

Here's another story of being predestinated 😊
Joshua
12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

15 Then Joshua returned with all Israel to the camp at Gilgal.

 

[sawdust]

The natural disposition of the human heart is enmity with God!

The problem of enmity is in the flesh, not the heart. If the heart is made free of the flesh's control (which requires God's grace), then the person can choose to accept or reject the truth from their own volition.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

 

[Johann]

We are certainly a long way from achieving a unity of the faith.
In answer to when is a Christian not a Christian? Before he has taken the Christian vitamin...B1.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Praise Jesus Christ for His word, Imperatives and Aorist's.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

The problem of enmity is in the flesh, not the heart. If the heart is made free of the flesh's control (which requires God's grace), then the person can choose to accept or reject the truth from their own volition.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

Jeremiah 17:9...the heart is the source of the problem. That's why God works from the inside out.

 

[Cameron143]

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Praise Jesus Christ for His word, Imperatives and Aorist's.
J.

You believe Ephesians 1:13 is the same as 1 Corinthians 12:13?

 

[Johann]

The problem of enmity is in the flesh, not the heart. If the heart is made free of the flesh's control (which requires God's grace), then the person can choose to accept or reject the truth from their own volition.

Some contemporary churches are billed as “seeker-friendly,” but the Bible says that “no one seeks God.” Psalm 14:2–3 pictures God searching in vain for even one heart that seeks Him: “The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

This passage is quoted in Romans 3:10–12, which says, “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.’” So, if no one seeks God, who are the “seekers” that some churches strategize to attract? Plus, how are people saved if no one is seeking God?

First we must understand human nature.

Because of Adam’s disobedience in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:11), sin entered the world and became part of human existence. Because Adam is the common ancestor of every human being, we all inherit that sin nature. We are born with a natural desire for rebellion, self-interest, and disobedience. In Romans 7:18, Paul says, “For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” In ourselves, we cannot seek after God, for the simple reason that seeking God is a good and holy thing. Sinful flesh is incapable of good and holy things (Isaiah 64:6).

Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them” (John 6:44). In other words, the only way we can seek God is if the Holy Spirit has first stirred our hearts with a desire for God.

It is God who draws us to Himself. Ephesians 2:8 underscores this truth: “By grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God.” Even the faith to believe for salvation does not originate within our fleshly nature. God enables the fallen human heart to seek Him, when in our own self-centered rebellion we would never do so. Every good thing originates with God (James 1:17). Faith in God is a good thing, and so it also originates with God.

Even our best efforts fall far short of the righteousness required by God (Romans 3:23). That’s why Scripture says that no one seeks God. We seek fulfillment. We seek pleasure. We seek escape from pain.

But the pure motivation of seeking after God for Himself is a gift from God. We are not saved because we had the wisdom and insight to exercise our own faith and trust God. No one wakes up one day and, on his own, decides to seek God. That would be a salvation by our own works, and Scripture is clear we are saved only by the grace and mercy of God (Titus 3:5; Romans 11:6). We are saved when God touches our hearts and prompts us to use the faith He gives to receive His gift of salvation. Even with the knowledge of God’s existence everywhere, people naturally choose to “suppress the truth by their wickedness” (Romans 1:18–20).

Because no one naturally seeks God, God seeks us. He sought Adam and Eve as they hid in the Garden (Genesis 3:9), and He has been seeking His lost loved ones ever since. Jesus gave this as His mission statement: “The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost” (Luke 19:10).

When God saves us, we are born again. He opens our eyes to the truth; He gives us faith and forgiveness and fellowship with Him. We become new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). In our newness of life, we are given godly desires (Psalm 73:25), a cleansed heart (Hebrews 10:22), and a new mind (1 Corinthians 2:16). In the power of the Holy Spirit, we begin to truly seek after God.

The connection between our salvation and our seeking after God is illustrated in how God restored His people following the Babylonian captivity. The ancient Jews at first expected a speedy return to their homeland, but the prophet Jeremiah advised them to settle in: their captivity would last seventy years (Jeremiah 29:10). Lest His people despair at the thought of such a lengthy discipline, God assured them that His plans were to give them “hope and a future” (verse 11). At the appointed time, the Jews repented of their sins and began to cry to the Lord in sincerity and fervency. This is just what God had foretold: “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you . . . and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you . . . and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile” (verses 13–14). The prophet Daniel exemplified this seeking after the Lord in his prayer on behalf of God’s people (Daniel 9:1–19).

https://www.gotquestions.org/seeks-...t does it mean that no one seeks God?,-ANSWER

The natural volition/tendency of man is to NOT seek the Light-but run from it.
J.

 

[Johann]

You believe Ephesians 1:13 is the same as 1 Corinthians 12:13?

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Depends how you view "Baptism"
J.

 

[Rufus]

OK then.. You are a proponent of TULIP.

That means that you enjoy arguing from an illogical position that you will present as an absolute.
And, will keep seeing the one not accepting your position as one who has an inferior intellect.

I have come to believe that TULIP believers crave to see themselves to be in a position of superior intellect.

And, that is where its appeal finds followers.

God's sovereignty whitewashes over a multitude of sins for those who make God's sovereignty into our point of contact with God.

Catholics have their blinded Mary worshippers, and Calvinists have their TULIP crowd.

Thank you for confirming my objection to labels.

As far as what you "have come to believe" about TULIP believers, that is your personal problem. There's nothing I can do to fix that. I will only say two things short and sweet -- first about myself: I totally agree with Paul's teaching in 1Cor 1:26-31. When God chose me, he chose the weakest, most foolish, the lowest and most despised human being on earth. And I confess openly I'm in Christ solely because God intervened in my life. He most assuredly did not rescue me from the kingdom of darkness because of anything worthy in myself. And secondly, with regard to the first tenet of the Five Doctrines, the only reason everyone is not a believer in those doctrines is because they have a much higher view of man than they should, and an altogether inadequate and unbiblical view of sin and its incredible heinous, monstrous power -- a power that only God Almighty himself is able to overcome (Rom 6:14). The power of sin is the Law and the sting of death is sin (1Cor 15:56), and the power of death is the Strong Man (Heb 2:14), whose house and work Jesus Christ plundered and destroyed. Whether you like it or not, Jesus Christ is the lone superhero of God's redemptive plan.

If what I just stated in the above paragraph is offensive to you, so be it. I must be true to my Lord and Savior and to his scriptures. I'm not here to win brownie points from any man or woman.

 

[Cameron143]

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Depends how you view "Baptism"
J.

Nothing like bringing up a topic and evading clarification.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Praise Jesus Christ for His word, Imperatives and Aorist's.
J.

he was still talking to one group of people, whom he knew had been sealed 😊

Ding ding

 

[Johann]

Thank you for confirming my objection to labels.

As far as what you "have come to believe" about TULIP believers, that is your personal problem. There's nothing I can do to fix that. I will only say two things short and sweet -- first about myself: I totally agree with Paul's teaching in 1Cor 1:26-31. When God chose me, he chose the weakest, most foolish, the lowest and most despised human being on earth. And I confess openly I'm in Christ solely because God intervened in my life. He most assuredly did not rescue me from the kingdom of darkness because of anything worthy in myself. And secondly, with regard to the first tenet of the Five Doctrines, the only reason everyone is not a believer in those doctrines is because they have a much higher view of man than they should, and an altogether inadequate and unbiblical view of sin and its incredible heinous, monstrous power -- a power that only God Almighty himself is able to overcome (Rom 6:14). The power of sin is the Law and the sting of death is sin (1Cor 15:56), and the power of death is the Strong Man (Heb 2:14), whose house and work Jesus Christ plundered and destroyed. Whether you like it or not, Jesus Christ is the lone superhero of God's redemptive plan.

If what I just stated in the above paragraph is offensive to you, so be it. I must be true to my Lord and Savior and to his scriptures. I'm not here to win brownie points from any man or woman.

Have no fear-we ALL need to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling-and it is appointed for man ONCE to die and after that the judgement.

I am not here to attack you for your beliefs.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Nothing like bringing up a topic and evading clarification.

Depends HOW you view baptism @Cameron143
J.

 

[Johann]

he was still talking to one group of people, whom he knew had been sealed 😊

Ding ding

you -- This refers to believing Gentiles (cf. Eph_2:11-12). Paul stresses that the same inheritance (Eph_1:14) God gave to Jews is also made available to non-Jews according to God’s revealed mystery (Eph_1:9; Eph_3:3-9).

Gentile Christians. Trusted, which is not in the Greek, is unnecessary. The pronoun ye is nominative to were sealed.
In whom
Resuming the in whom at the beginning of the verse, and repeated on account of the length of the clause.
Ye were sealed (ἐσφραγίσθητε)
See on Joh_3:33; see on Rev_22:10. Sealed with the assurance of the Holy Spirit. Rom_8:16; 2Co_1:22; 2Ti_2:19.
Spirit of promise
Strictly, the promise. Denoting the promise as characteristic of the Holy Spirit: the Spirit which was announced by promise. See Act_2:16 sqq.; Joe_2:28; Zec_12:10; Isa_32:15; Isa_44:3; Joh_7:39; Act_1:4-8; Gal_3:14.

J.

 

[Cameron143]

Depends HOW you view baptism @Cameron143
J.

No it doesn't. It might depend on how well one understands what God teaches about baptism.
But that's what I'm asking you. Are the 2 verses speaking of the same thing?