What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

[Bob-Carabbio]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh​

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Since Paul had been a "Religious terrorist", I'm sure the devil, and his folks didn't miss any opportunity to REMIND HIM of the lives, and families that he'd destroyed in his zeal to wipe out the blasphemy of Christianity, imagine running into the wife, who's husband you'd gotten imprisioned, or killed!!! or the children of the family you'd gotten tortured for their beliefs!!!! Paul had a LOT to feel guilty, and condemned about!!!​

 

[Obedience]

2 Corinthians
12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

1.Paul can't always go smoothly when he preaches.Someone will always attack the preached gospel.So Paul will continue to learn and grow in this process.He will not become Arrogant and complacent because of smooth sailing.

2.Romans
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul's thorn in the flesh,For those who don't want to believe the gospel and attack it.Paul regards all the Gentiles as his own flesh，That's why it's called "thorn in the flesh".

 

[GaryA]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?​

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Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.​

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The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.​

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What is 'concupiscence'?​

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Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.​

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"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)​

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(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)​

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2 Cor 12:7-10​

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"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."​

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Romans 7:7-11​

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"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."​

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The first "solid clue" is the word 'infirmities' in 2 Corinthians 12:9 - which refers back to the 'thorn in the flesh' in verse 7:

1) 'For this thing' in verse 8 is a direct reference to [the] 'thorn in the flesh' in verse 7.
2) 'Most gladly therefore' in verse 9 is "in answer to" the statement of God concerning grace and strength.
3) The statement of God is "in answer to" the 'thrice' request of Paul that the 'thing' might 'depart' from him.
4) The word 'infirmities' in verse 9 demonstrates that Paul considered his 'thorn in the flesh' to be an infirmity.

The first thing with regard to the 'thorn in the flesh' that we may determine from this passage with complete confidence is that Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was/is an 'infirmity' of some sort.

Furthermore, the implication is made that [having] the 'infirmity' caused Paul to be [more] "weak" compared to him not having the 'infirmity'.

Now - which of the following 'Six Aspects of Man' might this 'infirmity' - that "weakens" Paul - apply? :

1) Physical
2) Physiological
3) Psychological
4) Mental
5) Emotional
6) Spiritual

In some "ultra-technical" sense, it might be said that it could apply to any of them. However, in the 'grammar of the language' of the Corinthians passage of scripture, to which is it more/most likely to apply?

Just what exactly this 'infirmity' was/is - is not nearly as crucial - as what we should retain in our understanding that comes from verse 10.

The Romans passage has no [direct] special relevance to what Paul is saying in the Corinthians passage. In fact, the Romans passage is not a "self-explanatory" admission/confession about Paul's life; rather, it is a broad generalized how-it-works explanation of the relevance of the Law, sin, and salvation in the life of a Christian - it is by no means just about Paul and his life.

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see ...

When you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see that Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was some kind of 'infirmity'.

The plain-and-simple straight-forward meaning of scripture - just believe it - don't try to twist it into what you want it to say.

 

[GaryA]

You are understanding this quite correctly. This poster is clueless about this matter. His theory is that Paul went to Paradise in an extremely SINFUL condition but that was OK with God. Then God told him to continue in that condition and God's grace would be sufficient -- FOR WHAT? How in the world do people come up with such rubbish?

Yes - we know for certain without any doubt whatsoever that Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was not "a sin problem that God was okay with"; rather, it had a purpose that God approved of - and He gave Paul [the] grace to abide with it.

 

[DJT_47]

The first "solid clue" is the word 'infirmities' in 2 Corinthians 12:9 - which refers back to the 'thorn in the flesh' in verse 7:

1) 'For this thing' in verse 8 is a direct reference to [the] 'thorn in the flesh' in verse 7.
2) 'Most gladly therefore' in verse 9 is "in answer to" the statement of God concerning grace and strength.
3) The statement of God is "in answer to" the 'thrice' request of Paul that the 'thing' might 'depart' from him.
4) The word 'infirmities' in verse 9 demonstrates that Paul considered his 'thorn in the flesh' to be an infirmity.

The first thing with regard to the 'thorn in the flesh' that we may determine from this passage with complete confidence is that Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was/is an 'infirmity' of some sort.

Furthermore, the implication is made that [having] the 'infirmity' caused Paul to be [more] "weak" compared to him not having the 'infirmity'.

Now - which of the following 'Six Aspects of Man' might this 'infirmity' - that "weakens" Paul - apply? :

1) Physical
2) Physiological
3) Psychological
4) Mental
5) Emotional
6) Spiritual

In some "ultra-technical" sense, it might be said that it could apply to any of them. However, in the 'grammar of the language' of the Corinthians passage of scripture, to which is it more/most likely to apply?

Just what exactly this 'infirmity' was/is - is not nearly as crucial - as what we should retain in our understanding that comes from verse 10.

The Romans passage has no [direct] special relevance to what Paul is saying in the Corinthians passage. In fact, the Romans passage is not a "self-explanatory" admission/confession about Paul's life; rather, it is a broad generalized how-it-works explanation of the relevance of the Law, sin, and salvation in the life of a Christian - it is by no means just about Paul and his life.


When you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see that Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was some kind of 'infirmity'.

The plain-and-simple straight-forward meaning of scripture - just believe it - don't try to twist it into what you want it to say.

Infirmities, i.e.; fleshly disorders, diseases, etc., don't require God's grace, which relates to forgiveness of sin or otherwise similar undeserving things.

 

[GaryA]

Physical disability does not require tge grace of God.

Tell that to the folks that have to deal with a physical disability every [hour of every] day of their lives. (especially, a severe disability that causes them great hardship)

 

[DJT_47]

Tell that to the folks that have to deal with a physical disability every [hour of every] day of their lives. (especially, a severe disability that causes them great hardship)

Grace is typically defined as undeserved favor

 

[GaryA]

Your logic is illogical.

And, this is often the problem...

Did you know that 'logic' is but [just] one form of reasoning?

And that - there is another different form of reasoning - that we call 'faith'?

And that - 'logic' is a good form of reasoning for some things but not others?

And that - 'faith' is a good form of reasoning for some things but not others?

Generally speaking:

~ 'logic' is a good form of reasoning where 'physical' [realm] things are concerned
~ 'faith' is a good form of reasoning where 'spiritual' [realm] things are concerned

Anyone who uses only 'logic' when reasoning the scriptures - will fail - every - single - time - believe it [or not]!

 

[Dino246]

"A messenger of Satan" means what? Satan tempts and and usually consistent with one's inherent weakness.

Where is that in Scripture?

The messenger of Satan is Satan tempting with something enticing.

Where in Scripture does it say that the messenger of Satan was tempting or enticing Paul with anything?

And because Paul was tempted continually by Satan, who obviously attacked Paul in his weakness

Where does it say, "tempted continually" in Scripture?

 

[Dino246]

Generally speaking:

~ 'logic' is a good form of reasoning where 'physical' [realm] things are concerned
~ 'faith' is a good form of reasoning where 'spiritual' [realm] things are concerned

Anyone who uses only 'logic' when reasoning the scriptures - will fail - every - single - time - believe it [or not]!

That is not (even remotely) a valid statement. It is entirely dependent on the specific subject of the reasoning. Faith is appropriate in some cases, logic is appropriate in some cases, and methodical study is appropriate in some cases. Sometimes, two or even all three overlap.

 

[DJT_47]

Where is that in Scripture?


Where in Scripture does it say that the messenger of Satan was tempting or enticing Paul with anything?


2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."


Where does it say, "tempted continually" in Scripture?

Assumed continually or significantly enough that Paul besought the Lord on 3 separate occasions


2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

 

[GaryA]

Paul himself said he had a problem with concupiscence in the Roman scripture.

Well - yes and no - but mostly no...

(yes in only the most general every-man sense)

In the Romans passage you are referring to, Paul is making a how-it-works-and-how-it-happens explanation using a first-person illustration about a generality concerning everyone he is speaking to - he is not making a confession about any specific sin(s) in his own life - it is an "any-man" (human) description being explained from a first-person perspective.

 

[LeeLoving]

It seems to me from what the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh might have been a fallen angel, or devil, since it is referred to as the messenger of Satan. If so, it seems like someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit can also be affected in the flesh by a devil, though I suppose that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit would make it so that someone could not be possessed by a devil.

 

[DJT_47]

Well - yes and no - but mostly no...

(yes in only the most general every-man sense)

In the Romans passage you are referring to, Paul is making a how-it-works-and-how-it-happens explanation using a first-person illustration about a generality concerning everyone he is speaking to - he is not making a confession about any specific sin(s) in his own life - it is an "any-man" (human) description being explained from a first-person perspective.

You're making a definitive statement that can't be made, as though you KNOW: you don't. Paul, speaking 1st person singular using the words I and me, and speaking about a very specific thing, not sin in general. If it were general, and intended to be universally applicable, he wouldn't have done so, and would have not spoke in 1st person singular, but rather would have used words like 'sin', not concupiscence, and 'we', 'us', not "I", "me". However, believe what you like. I'll follow the words as they should be followed.

 

[LeeLoving]

It seems to me from what the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh might have been a fallen angel, or devil, since it is referred to as the messenger of Satan. If so, it seems like someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit can also be affected in the flesh by a devil, though I suppose that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit would make it so that someone could not be possessed by a devil.

Actually, rereading it, the language used doesn't seem to indicate that it was a devil.

 

[GaryA]

And, this is often the problem...

Did you know that 'logic' is but [just] one form of reasoning?

And that - there is another different form of reasoning - that we call 'faith'?

And that - 'logic' is a good form of reasoning for some things but not others?

And that - 'faith' is a good form of reasoning for some things but not others?

Generally speaking:

~ 'logic' is a good form of reasoning where 'physical' [realm] things are concerned
~ 'faith' is a good form of reasoning where 'spiritual' [realm] things are concerned

Anyone who uses only 'logic' when reasoning the scriptures - will fail - every - single - time - believe it [or not]!

Studying scripture involves dealing with a "mixture" of 'physical' [realm] things and 'spiritual' [realm] things. And, this is where 'logic' may be used for some things while 'faith' must be used for others. In other words, you can have both at the same time - however, you must apply the proper form of reasoning to each part - logic for certain/some parts - faith for certain/some parts.

Both 'logic' and 'faith' are often needed - each in its own proper perspective - to obtain the proper meaning of a verse/passage of scripture.

As an example of sorts - while 'logic' may be used when examining "What kind of 'infirmity' did Paul have?", we know by 'faith' that it was not a "personal sin problem" that God approved of and gave Paul grace to "endure" it.

 

[GaryA]

You're making a definitive statement that can't be made, as though you KNOW: you don't. Paul, speaking 1st person singular using the words I and me, and speaking about a very specific thing, not sin in general. If it were general, and intended to be universally applicable, he wouldn't have done so, and would have not spoke in 1st person singular, but rather would have used words like 'sin', not concupiscence, and 'we', 'us', not "I", "me". However, believe what you like. I'll follow the words as they should be followed.

My "definitive" statement comes from the experiential ability to go beyond "drink the milk" to "eat the meat"...

It is okay to suckle the milk; however, a more mature understanding sometimes requires the ability to consume solid food.

It would take me more time than I care to spend to try to explain it to you.

Just keep studying...

Let the Holy Spirit lead you - do not follow after [human] "intellectual" thinking.

 

[Dino246]

Assumed continually or significantly enough that Paul besought the Lord on 3 separate occasions

Those aren't the same thing.

 

[Dino246]

As an example of sorts - while 'logic' may be used when examining "What kind of 'infirmity' did Paul have?", we know by 'faith' that it was not a "personal sin problem" that God approved of and gave Paul grace to "endure" it.

No, we don't know that by faith, and faith is not the right tool for that application. Faith is applicable when if comes to God's promises, not when it comes to interpreting tertiary issues in Scripture.

We infer by logic that the messenger of Satan that afflicted Paul was not a personal sin problem.

 

[DJT_47]

My "definitive" statement comes from the experiential ability to go beyond "drink the milk" to "eat the meat"...

It is okay to suckle the milk; however, a more mature understanding sometimes requires the ability to consume solid food.

It would take me more time than I care to spend to try to explain it to you.

Just keep studying...

Let the Holy Spirit lead you - do not follow after [human] "intellectual" thinking.

Opinion: yours