Spiritual Baptism

[Johann]

Because I believe baptism of fire comes after baptism of water.

But now even if for some reason you dont get baptised in water Is God going to abandon you.

Looks like you have a LOT to learn-and time is running out-how are you redeeming time? Play-acting?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Looks like you have a LOT to learn-and time is running out-how are you redeeming time? Play-acting?

That would be insinuation, and I aint got time for that,

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Not complicated for me-

Water baptism is: An illustration.
Water baptism, like other ordinances of the Bible, involves symbolism. For example, the animal sacrifices depicted the death of Christ on the cross. Circumcision depicted the removal of the sinful nature (Colossians 2:11). In each ordinance, there is an outward physical ritual, and also an underlying spiritual reality of which the ritual is but a shadow or type.

In the Old Testament, it sometimes appeared that these rituals had certain saving merit, in themselves. However, that was never the case…

Hebrews 10:4 – For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Romans 2:28-29 – For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Whenever saving merit was ascribed to these ordinances, it was to be understood that it was the underlying spiritual reality which was really meant, and not the ritual itself.

Many of the Jews did not understand this. The Pharisees, for example, thought they could be made perfect through the ordinances themselves, and this was the basis for their self-righteous confidence, piety and arrogance. Many of them relentlessly persecuted Christ and His apostles for teaching that the ordinances did not possess saving merit.

These ordinances did not possess some magical power to invoke the spiritual reality they symbolized.

The Old Testament Jews did not actually receive a new dose of forgiveness from God each time they brought an animal to be sacrificed. Rather, each sacrifice served as a retelling of the gospel—a reminder that we are sinful and cannot save ourselves—that we need a Redeemer who will lay down His life for us, bearing our sins.

Likewise, when a child was circumcised, this did not actually remove his sinful heart. It only served as a picture of the great work which God performs when He takes away our sinful heart.

Water baptism, as an outward ordinance, involves cleansing with water. It is symbolic of the Holy Spirit's inner work of cleansing the soul. Just like the Old Testament ordinances, this New Testament ordinance is simply a picture of a great work of God in saving us from sin and judgment. The outward cleansing does not accomplish inward cleansing any more than circumcision did. It is a picture, ordained by God, and that is all it is.

When Hebrews 10:20 speaks of "a new and living way," it does not mean that the Old Testament ordinances have been replaced by the New Testament ordinance of water baptism. There would be nothing "new" or "living" about such a salvation—it would be the old Pharisaical paradigm of a magical ritual we can perform to save ourselves.

Jesus Christ is "the new and living way." He is a real, living person (rituals, such as water baptism, have no inherent life to themselves). Jesus tells us that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6). Thus, He alone is the "living way," and His sacrificial death is a new way, because it departs from the legalistic pattern of ordinances which we must observe to be saved. Salvation is something which He has accomplished.

Sometimes, the Bible seems to ascribe saving merit to water baptism. Paul was told to "… Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16). Are we to assume that Paul could actually wash away his sins by taking a bath? Or, are we to understand that water baptism is only a picture of something which God has done for us—by the sacrifice of Christ and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit—when we "call on His name"?

When you claim that the physical ordinance itself has magical powers of spiritual cleansing, you fall into the same trap of ritualism and self-justification that the legalistic Pharisees stumbled into. We must be careful to view the outward ceremony only as a picture of God's mighty work of salvation, and avoid the errors of the Pharisees.

But I have this feeling it is a waste of time.
J.

well no it's not a waste of time I am glad you've gone to the effort 😊

I've just said I haven't got time to discuss your position in full.

patience is a virtue, giving freely on the bases of whether someone receives or not is something you must get use to.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Not complicated for me-

Water baptism is: An illustration.
Water baptism, like other ordinances of the Bible, involves symbolism. For example, the animal sacrifices depicted the death of Christ on the cross. Circumcision depicted the removal of the sinful nature (Colossians 2:11). In each ordinance, there is an outward physical ritual, and also an underlying spiritual reality of which the ritual is but a shadow or type.

In the Old Testament, it sometimes appeared that these rituals had certain saving merit, in themselves. However, that was never the case…

Hebrews 10:4 – For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Romans 2:28-29 – For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Whenever saving merit was ascribed to these ordinances, it was to be understood that it was the underlying spiritual reality which was really meant, and not the ritual itself.

Many of the Jews did not understand this. The Pharisees, for example, thought they could be made perfect through the ordinances themselves, and this was the basis for their self-righteous confidence, piety and arrogance. Many of them relentlessly persecuted Christ and His apostles for teaching that the ordinances did not possess saving merit.

These ordinances did not possess some magical power to invoke the spiritual reality they symbolized.

The Old Testament Jews did not actually receive a new dose of forgiveness from God each time they brought an animal to be sacrificed. Rather, each sacrifice served as a retelling of the gospel—a reminder that we are sinful and cannot save ourselves—that we need a Redeemer who will lay down His life for us, bearing our sins.

Likewise, when a child was circumcised, this did not actually remove his sinful heart. It only served as a picture of the great work which God performs when He takes away our sinful heart.

Water baptism, as an outward ordinance, involves cleansing with water. It is symbolic of the Holy Spirit's inner work of cleansing the soul. Just like the Old Testament ordinances, this New Testament ordinance is simply a picture of a great work of God in saving us from sin and judgment. The outward cleansing does not accomplish inward cleansing any more than circumcision did. It is a picture, ordained by God, and that is all it is.

When Hebrews 10:20 speaks of "a new and living way," it does not mean that the Old Testament ordinances have been replaced by the New Testament ordinance of water baptism. There would be nothing "new" or "living" about such a salvation—it would be the old Pharisaical paradigm of a magical ritual we can perform to save ourselves.

Jesus Christ is "the new and living way." He is a real, living person (rituals, such as water baptism, have no inherent life to themselves). Jesus tells us that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6). Thus, He alone is the "living way," and His sacrificial death is a new way, because it departs from the legalistic pattern of ordinances which we must observe to be saved. Salvation is something which He has accomplished.

Sometimes, the Bible seems to ascribe saving merit to water baptism. Paul was told to "… Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16). Are we to assume that Paul could actually wash away his sins by taking a bath? Or, are we to understand that water baptism is only a picture of something which God has done for us—by the sacrifice of Christ and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit—when we "call on His name"?

When you claim that the physical ordinance itself has magical powers of spiritual cleansing, you fall into the same trap of ritualism and self-justification that the legalistic Pharisees stumbled into. We must be careful to view the outward ceremony only as a picture of God's mighty work of salvation, and avoid the errors of the Pharisees.

But I have this feeling it is a waste of time.
J.

when you look at water baptism as a ceremonial washing or on the bases of how John the baptist gave it, then your in danger of not seeing the special meaning of the new water baptism.

All you will see is the water,

Well this is where the Spirit is lost.

Because it's so easy to think with a water that's not living.

 

[Johann]

well no it's not a waste of time I am glad you've gone to the effort 😊

I've just said I haven't got time to discuss your position in full.

patience is a virtue, giving freely on the bases of whether someone receives or not is something you must get use to.

No need for you to respond-I have perused some of your posts to others-and-well-
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

No need for you to respond-I have perused some of your posts to others-and-well-
J.

y

My position has never faltered and has hope, and puts the emphasis on a person following the lord. 😊

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Looks like you have a LOT to learn-and time is running out-how are you redeeming time? Play-acting?

Theres only one person who is a redeemer and That's Jesus Christ.

 

[Johann]

when you look at water baptism as a ceremonial washing or on the bases of how John the baptist gave it, then your in danger of not seeing the special meaning of the new water baptism.

All you will see is the water,

Well this is where the Spirit is lost.

Because it's so easy to think with a water that's not living.

Why are you "missing" what stands written?


Joh_4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew [about] God's gift [of eternal life], and who it is who says, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him [instead], and He would have given you living water (eternal life)."

Joh 4:10 In reply, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to her, If you knew the matanah (gift) of Hashem and who it is saying to you, Give me a drink, [BERESHIS 26:19] you would have asked him and he would have given you Mayim Chayyim (Living Water). [YESHAYAH 44:3; 55:1; YIRMEYAH 2:13; 17:13; ZECHARYAH 14:8].

Joh 4:14 But whoever drinks of the mayim (water) which I will give to him will never thirst again, but the mayim (water) which I will give him will become in him a makor (fountain, TEHILLIM 36:10 [9]) of mayim (water, YESHAYAH 12:3; 58:11) springing up unto Chayyei Olam.

Joh_4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

You really think the dorean of YHVH is baptism?

 

[Johann]

Theres only one person who is a redeemer and That's Jesus Christ.

Col_4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.

You DO realize this is an Imperative-right?
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Why are you "missing" what stands written?


Joh_4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew [about] God's gift [of eternal life], and who it is who says, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him [instead], and He would have given you living water (eternal life)."

Joh 4:10 In reply, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to her, If you knew the matanah (gift) of Hashem and who it is saying to you, Give me a drink, [BERESHIS 26:19] you would have asked him and he would have given you Mayim Chayyim (Living Water). [YESHAYAH 44:3; 55:1; YIRMEYAH 2:13; 17:13; ZECHARYAH 14:8].

Joh 4:14 But whoever drinks of the mayim (water) which I will give to him will never thirst again, but the mayim (water) which I will give him will become in him a makor (fountain, TEHILLIM 36:10 [9]) of mayim (water, YESHAYAH 12:3; 58:11) springing up unto Chayyei Olam.

Joh_4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

You really think the dorean of YHVH is baptism?

I'm not missing, I like the word, that say I will peg you up on pinions and stirs the nest.

Do you know what pinions are, because I would love to peg you up on pinions if I could 😊

 

[Wansvic]

What do you mean brother ? That’s part of being reborn new born babies have no sin , neither does someone who is baptized into Christs death for remission of all thier sins, they will only know and do it if they hear what’s in the Bible telling them that’s what it’s for

“baptism for repentance and remission of sins “ is just what it says

Being “ born again “ is a concept not a literal thing but a concept that your embracing a new way of life in Christ Jesus you accept the gospel in other words you believe he is the lord and you become his disciple or in other words he’s a teacher and you believe and learn from and follow after him

You aren’t magically a new person free of temptations and perfect or anything but you have come to faith that jesusbos the truth , the one God sent to save us all from sin and death and hell and damnation and all those terrible things the ot says of all who sin

what I would say is you can receive the Holy Spirit before you ever even hear about being baptized in water. We both know acts ten of course so I won’t bother quoting it but they first received the Holy Spirit and then after that Peter tells them to get baptized in water commands them rather.

you don’t have to be perfect and sinless to receive Gods spirit look at the ot judges like Samson who seems rather lawless and brutal even for his age or any number of examples really.

But also true is that receiving the holy spirit has never promised remission of sins to anyone getting baptized in Jesus name for repentance and remission of sins promises remission of sins

my position brother is that baptism is one but there’s one action that we are meant to partake of as the church on earth believers who believe he died for our sins , and then the other part of the one baptism is Jesus sending his spirit to the person and also the person being identified as a child of God and an hier of Abraham and his covenant for all people through his seed Jesus Christ

baptism also has those two parts as you are put to death with Jesus , buried and also then you are lifted up in his name

“born again “ is a term or concept coming from the understandings like these

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a concept taught there that there’s a new identity for those who were baptized in his name

and how now they are like Jesus was , the children of God in whom God is well pleased filled with his spirit and also having remission of all thier sins behind them and those they will truly repent of ahead as well bieng born as Abraham’s hiers

born again to me is a concept regarding our kind and heart that is made new by the gospel not something a that just happens because we get baptized I probably confuse a lot lately ….

I believe baptism is based on what he said , what he did , and then what his apostles taught in the basic doctrines like baptism for remission of sins

all I was getting at before brother is getting baptized if I don’t repent and believe the gospel wouldn’t help me at all I personally believe everyone should just get baptized for remission of sins with joy but people choose and come to that conclusion their selves

hearing then belief has to come before baptism is all I’m saying so birth would come at belief and maybe delivery lol at baptism idk bro

Sharing scripture about certain subjects seems to help understand what the Bible teaches about those subjects

I think baptism has a physical and also spiritual part like humans we have a body and a spirit but we’re one

water and spirit is my position but I don’t think a believer is gonna lose salvation because they couldn’t or didn’t get baptized either

The natural birthing process is an interesting one. A baby having been conceived in the womb must come out of water, and also receive breathe in order to survive.

 

[Wansvic]

Also brother I had a seperate question for you regarding baptism because I know this is one of the subjects you particularly study and have a great grasp of

i was wondering what you thought of this mysterious verse and the context Paul’s using it in

So Paul is making this argument regarding some saying there would be no resurrection a

“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:12-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of the points he uses examples rather I perceive anyways is this verse

And I’ll leave some more for context but I’m just wondering what you think of this verse here I personally don’t really know what to make of it

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I can’t reason why Paul would throw in any erroneous thing to support his argument yet there’s Jon other verse I’ve ever read regarding baptism for those who are dead

aim in no way trying to claim this is legitimate doctrine or anything just puzzled and am wondering what you think ? I’m sure you’ve come across it before

I wrote the following regarding aspects revealed in that chapter of 1 Corinthians. Hope it helps.

Shining Light on 1 Corinthians Chapter 15

First and foremost, context is crucial when evaluating any scripture. The context of the chapter in question pertains specifically to aspects of the resurrection.

Many mistakenly conclude that verses 1 and 2 of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 confirm that an individual need only believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved. The gospel message certainly begins with that information; however, it does not stop there.

Paul begins his letter by reminding the group that he declared to them the gospel by which they were saved. (verses 1-2) He goes on to point out a specific part of the gospel message that he and they received FIRST; that Jesus died for their sins, was buried and resurrected. (verses 3-4) He then delves into concepts associated with resurrection throughout the rest of the chapter.

Apostle Paul’s comment about Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection being what is shared with people FIRST indicates there is other information included in the gospel message. This truth is seen in scripture relevant to all groups of humanity: (Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans) Acts 2:22-41; 8:12-17; 10:37-48. In each of these scripture references we see individuals hearing the word of God and complying with the command to be water baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Ghost as well.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 29 Paul specifically brings up water baptism; this is in order to make a point. It could be for no other reason since being baptized for the dead is found no where in scripture. Paul questions why people are getting baptized for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected. Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical it speaks to the fact that people realized water baptism played a part in the spiritual rebirth. And as such, they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives and/or friends who had not submitted to it for themselves before meeting their demise.

Clearly one’s repentance and water baptism would hold no significance without Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ sacrifice is what makes the NT spiritual rebirth possible. Even though Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, not all will have their personal sins washed away. It is through obedience to the God designed plan of salvation as expressed in the word that all are given the opportunity to be become born again children of God.

 

[Cameron143]

I wrote the following regarding aspects revealed in that chapter of 1 Corinthians. Hope it helps.

Shining Light on 1 Corinthians Chapter 15

First and foremost, context is crucial when evaluating any scripture. The context of the chapter in question pertains specifically to aspects of the resurrection.

Many mistakenly conclude that verses 1 and 2 of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 confirm that an individual need only believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved. The gospel message certainly begins with that information; however, it does not stop there.

Paul begins his letter by reminding the group that he declared to them the gospel by which they were saved. (verses 1-2) He goes on to point out a specific part of the gospel message that he and they received FIRST; that Jesus died for their sins, was buried and resurrected. (verses 3-4) He then delves into concepts associated with resurrection throughout the rest of the chapter.

Apostle Paul’s comment about Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection being what is shared with people FIRST indicates there is other information included in the gospel message. This truth is seen in scripture relevant to all groups of humanity: (Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans) Acts 2:22-41; 8:12-17; 10:37-48. In each of these scripture references we see individuals hearing the word of God and complying with the command to be water baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Ghost as well.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 29 Paul specifically brings up water baptism; this is in order to make a point. It could be for no other reason since being baptized for the dead is found no where in scripture. Paul questions why people are getting baptized for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected. Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical it speaks to the fact that people realized water baptism played a part in the spiritual rebirth. And as such, they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives and/or friends who had not submitted to it for themselves before meeting their demise.

Clearly one’s repentance and water baptism would hold no significance without Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ sacrifice is what makes the NT spiritual rebirth possible. Even though Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, not all will have their personal sins washed away. It is through obedience to the God designed plan of salvation as expressed in the word that all are given the opportunity to be become born again children of God.

So... following a known false practice gives rise to proper doctrine? One may believe in baptismal regeneration or not, but this is a poor argument for it.

 

[Wansvic]

So... following a known false practice gives rise to proper doctrine? One may believe in baptismal regeneration or not, but this is a poor argument for it.

I disagree with your opinion.

Again, Paul was not condoning their actions, he was making a point. If there would be no resurrection then why were they bothering to be baptized for the remission of sins of those who had no chance of living on after death. Paul was revealing they did believe in the resurrection, if not they wouldn't be trying to alter their loved one's eternal destiny.

 

[Cameron143]

I disagree with your opinion.

Again, Paul was not condoning their actions, he was making a point. If there would be no resurrection then why were they bothering to be baptized for the remission of sins of those who had no chance of living on after death. Paul was revealing they did believe in the resurrection, if not they wouldn't be trying to alter their loved one's eternal destiny.

Sure. But he was pointing out the futility of it. And his argument isn't that baptism is necessary, only that there is a resurrection, and that the resurrection is a widely held belief.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

So if I'm reading theese last load of posts correctly baptism has no part of saving you, because the catholics do it and call it baptism regeneration 🤔

 

[Lafftur]

The following is found on GotQuestions.org:

Christian baptism is one of two ordinances that Jesus instituted for the church. Just before His ascension, Jesus said, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:19–20). These instructions specify that the church is responsible to teach Jesus’ word, make disciples, and baptize those disciples. These things are to be done everywhere (“all nations”) until “the very end of the age.” So, if for no other reason, baptism has importance because Jesus commanded it.

We know the disciples would baptize new believers in water and they would lay their hands on the new believers and pray for them to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

We also know there is a baptism with fire according to John the Baptist when speaking about Jesus Christ.

Water = Baptism for our body
Holy Spirit = Baptism for our spirit
Fire = Baptism for our soul (mind, will, emotions)

Don’t mistake the “sealing with the Holy Spirit” with the “baptism with the Holy Spirit” - two different works of the Holy Spirit in a Believer’s life.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The following is found in acts 2.38

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

Sure. But he was pointing out the futility of it. And his argument isn't that baptism is necessary, only that there is a resurrection, and that the resurrection is a widely held belief.

Actually Paul wasn't addressing the futility of baptism. Paul was stating the obvious. If one truly does not believe in the resurrection why would they try to alter a dead person's destiny by being baptized on their behalf.

 

[Cameron143]

Actually Paul wasn't addressing the futility of baptism. Paul was stating the obvious. If one truly does not believe in the resurrection why would they try to alter a dead person's destiny by being baptized on their behalf.

The subject is the resurrection. The point he was making is that even the ignorant understand there is a resurrection.
I believe you can find baptismal regeneration under every passage.