Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

Believing in Christ is a product of being born again. According to Strong's concordance, save=deliver, saved=delivered. salvation=deliverance.

There is a deliverance when a born again person comes unto a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) ( Rom 10:1-3).

If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal deliverance, they will tend to teach that eternal salvation is accomplished by works.

It's still not answering my question. Believing in Christ is salvation. Being born from above is salvation. If we have to be born again before we can believe then we are being saved to be saved. It makes no sense.

 

[Genez]

Fortunately, the adoption is defined in scripture for us so we know immediately what it is. The adoption is the redemption of the body.

Its not meaning like we use the word 'adoption' for today.

Adoption in the Roman world took place when a wealthy father was to assign his son to become the inheritor of his estate.

At the right age the son would appear before his wealthy father.
If the son was found acceptable to the father?
The father then declared him to be his son, not before.

And, if the son did not meet the approval of his biological father?

That father would seek among the populous for a fine young man who had the qualities the wealthy father desired.
Then that father would "adopt" that fine young man, who would be given a family signet ring giving him access to
the father's wealth and granting overseeing power for the father's estate.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, ​

if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.​

​

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory ​

that will be revealed in us." Romans 8:17-18​

grace and peace .............

 

[Genez]

Very sneaky, to rearrange the wording of John 6:29. Correct wording: This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent = The work of God to allow you to believe, is God's grace in regenerating the person who is dead spiritually, to a new spiritual life, in changing his heart of stone to a soft fleshy heart.

Your sneaky wording: The work of God is this, that ye believe. Your rearrangement of the scripture allows the natural man to believe before he has been born again and that theory will contradict other scriptures.

It amazes me to what extremes you believer's in the works system will go in rewriting the scriptures and interpreting them falsely.

God's grace makes way for regeneration. It does not cause it.

When man is left to his own devices his flesh will dominate and enslave his soul.
The flesh is antagonistic to the Spirit of God..



For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the]
Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic
to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that
you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do." Galatians 5:17


To keep it simple?

Grace is God's power that will suppress the influence of our flesh over our soul when presented salvation.
In doing so? The soul (while grace is doing its work) will be made free to make a non compulsive choice
either 'for,' or 'against' what the Spirit desires for us to accept.

Yes... grace makes the unbeliever's soul free to choose to reject salvation!
Made free from the compulsion to reject the desires of the Spirit.

While under this grace to choose to believe? The soul chooses being made free from the flesh.
Therefore that rejection of the Lord can not be constituted as normal sin.....

What the rejecting soul manifests at the point of being presented salvation is not sin.
Its "EVIL."

Jesus died for our sins.
He could not die for evil.
If He had died for evil?
He would have had to reject truth and Himself to do so....

Jesus died for sin.
Not for Evil.

Those who go to the Lake of Fire?
Go there because of their own Evil, not their sins.

grace and peace .........................

 

[John146]

What is the new testament requirements, according to you?

The Bible gives us the answer.

Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1. Hear the gospel of Jesus Christ (how Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day)
2. Trust/believe the gospel
3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

there is spiritual Israel/Jacob which is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation

And this is why GOD, not Paul, but GOD said to both Abram/Abraham and Moses
3 ... and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'
+
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.'
...because Israel is intended to be for ALL People whoever lived from Adam until Judgement Day.

And those who are not a part of Israel are because they "CHOOSE" not to be. There is "no other reason" than they chose not to be followers of God as to why they are not part of Israel, or descendants of Abraham. They "CHOOSE" not to be a part of God. No other reason. When God shows us "every family" is to be part of Abraham. That means "every human being" "who ever lived" was supposed to be part of Israel. But if you "CHOOSE" to reject God, He will not force you to be with Him.

 

[BillyBob]

It seems to me that being saved is a different experience for each person.
When you talk to someone who was a covenant child and ask them “When did you become a believer?”, most of the time the answer will be “I do not remember a time when I was not a believer”.
I honestly believe that this happens because:

• Their parents had them in church at a very early age.
• 
  
• They were hearing, being taught, at a very early age.
• 
  
• And we have a very covenantal God!

However, I was in my late 30's at the time of being saved. I had started going to church but was not a believer. But, the word of God was now flowing into my ears and mind. And, if ask when I first believed, there would be no doubt in my mind. I know when it happened!
I honestly believe that the spirit had to change my heart prior to, or at the same time as becoming a believer. It seemed to me that 1)my heart was changed, 2)I believed, 3)then I was saved. It happened so fast that I could be wrong, but that is the way it felt.

 

[Genez]

It seems to me that being saved is a different experience for each person.
When you talk to someone who was a covenant child and ask them “When did you become a believer?”, most of the time the answer will be “I do not remember a time when I was not a believer”.
I honestly believe that this happens because:

• Their parents had them in church at a very early age.
• 
  
• They were hearing, being taught, at a very early age.
• 
  
• And we have a very covenantal God!

However, I was in my late 30's at the time of being saved. I had started going to church but was not a believer. But, the word of God was now flowing into my ears and mind. And, if ask when I first believed, there would be no doubt in my mind. I know when it happened!
I honestly believe that the spirit had to change my heart prior to, or at the same time as becoming a believer. It seemed to me that 1)my heart was changed, 2)I believed, 3)then I was saved. It happened so fast that I could be wrong, but that is the way it felt.

When it comes to deciding for salvation?

Grace changes the 'status' of your heart.
It does not change your heart in the realm of who and what you really are - when made free by grace to be.

Grace is God's power that removes the dominance of the sin nature over your soul,
so you are being made free by grace to discover what was in your heart towards the Lord.

Its after one chooses for believing in Jesus that God changes out heart via regeneration.

 

[PaulThomson]

The text IN context, says THIS:

Ephesians 1:3-5
New King James Version
Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Hate to be Captain Obvious, but the Church is made up of individuals. In all 180 times the word "us" (hemas) is used, it refers to a group of INDIVIDUALS.



SONS OF CHRIST. Each son is an INDIVIDUAL.

I could go on, but let me ask you this question.

Do you think it more offensive to God to:
1. Believe that you, or I, and every other believer are either smarter or more moral than those that reject Christ.

2. Or that God chose His before the foundation of the world.


If you pick 1, you need to explain why you are smarter to have understood the Gospel, or how you are morally superior BEFORE conversion than those that reject Him.

I hate to have to tell you the obvious... again: that -

Paul does not say "He chose each of us (ekaston hEmOn) in Christ before the foundation of the world." He says "He chose us (hEmas), i.e. the community of the church, in Christ before the foundation of the world; not specific individuals before the foundation of the world, who ended up added to the church.

If Paul were referring to each individual, he could have used the Greek word ekastos to say each. He didn't. So don't read ekastos into the text when it is not there.
When someone reports that a rioting mob marched down Main Street and they burned down 25 businesses, do they mean that each one burned down 25 shops? According to you the answer is yes, because obviously they is made up of individuals.

When someone reports the theft of a recovered truck full of cheeses, that they (the cheeses) were stolen in the recovered delivery truck from Main Street before 2 am on Thursday for distribution to cafes in the neighbouring county the next day, does that mean that each cheese was individually selected by brand name and packet weight at the time the truck was stolen? According to you the theives knew each cheese by name because a truckload of cheese (they) is obviously made up of individual cheeses.

Your problem is that you are applying a severe lack of reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic to wrested biblical texts in order to prop up a systematic theology you were taught which was never based on competent reading comprehension and logic in the first place.

You are also confusing "adoption as sons" which Paul says specifically is the resurrection of the saints which will happen at the end of the age; vs. being born into God's family as new babes in Christ happening 2000 years before the adoption as sons.

"5 "... having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."

The us is the saints Paul is addressing who are already children of God, but are predestined for adoption as sons at the resurrection. Again you are suffering from poor reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic.

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you think it more offensive to God to:
1. Believe that you, or I, and every other believer are either smarter or more moral than those that reject Christ.

2. Or that God chose His before the foundation of the world.

You are presenting a false dichotomy. The two options are not logically related or exhaustive. I believe that before the foundation of the world God chose His future church in His appointed heir, the Son, whose heritage would grow throughout history to include humans who dedicated themselves to trust and follow the Son.

 

[Johann]

The word "predestinated", in the Bible, is always referring to a group; not an individual. And God shows that it was His will for that group to have specific and very certain characteristics.

Is it to nations or to individuals? In reply to this, in addition to the remarks already made, I would observe,
(1) That there is no specification of “nations” here as such, no mention of the Gentiles in contradistinction from the Jews.
(2) Those referred to were those included in the word “us,” among whom Paul was one - but Paul was not a heathen.
(3) The same objection will lie against the doctrine of predestinating “nations” which will lie against predestinating “individuals.”
(4) Nations are made up of individuals, and the pre-determination must have had some reference to individuals.
What is a nation but a collection of individuals? There is no such abstract being or thing as a nation; and if there was any purpose in regard to a nation, it must have had some reference to the individuals composing it. He that would act on the ocean, must act on the drops of water that make up the ocean; for besides the collection of drops of water there is no ocean. He that would remove a mountain, must act on the particles of matter that compose that mountain; for there is no such thing as an abstract mountain. Perhaps there was never a greater illusion than to suppose that all difficulty is removed in regard to the doctrine of election and predestination, by saying that it refers to “nations.” What difficulty is lessened? What is gained by it? How does it make God appear more amiable and good?

 

[Johann]

Again you are suffering from poor reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic.

Sometimes-a five fold "ministry" would suffice.
J.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Again you are suffering from poor reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic.

Sometimes-a five fold "ministry" would suffice.
J.

Really? You can substitute supposed apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastor/teachers for your own reading of the biblical text using careful comprehension and logic? Good luck with that.

 

[selahsays]

Hate to be Captain Obvious, but the Church is made up of individuals. In all 180 times the word "us" (hemas) is used, it refers to a group of INDIVIDUALS.

Yes; I agree. The pronouns used in Romans 8:28-29 is “them” and “whom”— referring to individuals.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

 

[Johann]

Yes; I agree. The pronouns used in Romans 8:28-29 is “them” and “whom”— referring to individuals.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

Amen to that-

He hath chosen us - The word “us” here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities.

It includes Paul himself as one of the “chosen,” and those whom he addressed - the mingled Gentile and Jewish converts in Ephesus. That it must refer to individuals is clear.

Of no “community” as such can it be said that it was” chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy.” It is not true of the Gentile world as such, nor of anyone of the nations making up the Gentile world.

The word rendered here “hath chosen” - ἐξελέξατο exelexato - is from a word meaning “to lay out together,” (Passow,) to choose out, to select. It has the idea of making a choice or selection among different objects or things.

It is applied to things, as in Luk_10:42, Mary “hath chosen that good part;” - she has made a choice, or selection of it, or has shown a “preference” for it. 1Co_1:27, “God hath chosen the foolish things of the world;” he has preferred to make use of them among all the conceivable things which might have been employed” to confound the wise;” compare Act_1:2, Act_1:24; Act_6:5; Act_15:22, Act_15:25.

hath chosen. or, chose out. Gr. eklegomai (S# G1586, Mar_13:20). There is a Scriptural predestination- Predestination is to holiness, righteousness, and true knowledge (Eph_4:24; Col_3:10). God’s sovereign choice from eternity was that His people be holy and blameless before Him.

Be holy expresses the moral and spiritual state of being in the here and now—holy. Blameless is a negation of all that is blameworthy. So God’s choice from eternity was that there be a holy, blameless people in the image of His Son.

The Church thus participates in that Scriptural holiness predestinated from eternity (Cf. Rom_8:29-30; 2Pe_1:4 and notes) [LNT, fn a]. This is predestination of Divine exaltation, salvation, redemption, and restoration from the Fall, not the heartless decree of Calvinism, carried out by irresistible grace for the elect, and eternal damnation for all others (Rom_9:15 note) [LNT, fn a, retained from preliminary edition]. Deu_7:6-7; Deu_26:18-19, =2Ch_29:11, Psa_33:12; Psa_65:4; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:5; Psa_110:3; Psa_135:4, +*Isa_41:8; +*Isa_41:9; Isa_42:1; Isa_44:2; Isa_65:8-10, Zec_1:17, +*Mat_11:25; +*Mat_11:26; Mat_24:22; Mat_24:24; Mat_24:31, +*Joh_10:16; Joh_15:19; +*Joh_17:6, +*Act_13:48; Act_18:10, +*Rom_8:28; +*Rom_8:30; +*Rom_8:33; Rom_9:23-24; Rom_11:5-6; Rom_16:13, 1Th_1:4, *2Th_2:13; *2Th_2:14, +*2Ti_1:9; 2Ti_2:10, *Tit_1:1; *Tit_1:2, +*Jas_2:5, *1Pe_1:2; *1Pe_2:6; *1Pe_2:9, 2Jn_1:1, %Rev_13:8; %Rev_17:8.

Shalom
J.

 

[PennEd]

You are presenting a false dichotomy. The two options are not logically related or exhaustive. I believe that before the foundation of the world God chose His future church in His appointed heir, the Son, whose heritage would grow throughout history to include humans who dedicated themselves to trust and follow the Son.

You are sidestepping the question.

I’ll simplify it for you.
Did YOU choose to believe Jesus was the Christ, who died for your sins and rose to life again?

And if so why?

 

[notmyown]

You are sidestepping the question.

I’ll simplify it for you.
Did YOU choose to believe Jesus was the Christ, who died for your sins and rose to life again?

And if so why?

remember when you began to see this in the scriptures, and how much you probably didn't like it?

i was an absolute spoiled brat about it. But God (oh, those lovely words!) was patient with me. i wonder if one's eyes must be opened to this truth?

 

[PennEd]

remember when you began to see this in the scriptures, and how much you probably didn't like it?

i was an absolute spoiled brat about it. But God (oh, those lovely words!) was patient with me. i wonder if one's eyes must be opened to this truth?

Yes. No matter how far down you dig it’s ALWAYS God’s Work, done through the faith He gifted us.

 

[Johann]

Yes. No matter how far down you dig it’s ALWAYS God’s Work, done through the faith He gifted us.

-So that NO man may boast.
Praise our Lord Christ Jesus-and without the sealing of the Holy Spirit NO one belongs to Christ.
Well done @PennEd
J.

 

[PennEd]

Good thread to break this issue down.

We are ALL lost, until God does a work in us. We are spiritually DEAD. Not sick, or just MOSTLY dead.

Ephesians 2
New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

We are born in the spiritually fallen image and likeness of Adam.

Genesis 5:3
New King James Version
3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

So God then gifts us the faith to believe in Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8-9
New King James Version
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yes the Salvation is a gift, but the GRACE tells us here how we have been saved. It would be highly redundant to say "By the Grace gift you have ben saved". The MECHANISM by which the Grace is applied is the FAITH that is gifted to us by God.

EVERYTHING we have and are is from God.
You are intelligent? From God
You have wisdom? From God
You have the Word? From God
You have FAITH? FROM GOD.
James 1:17 NKJV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

So if faith isn't a gift from God where does it come from? Ah! I know.
Faith comes by hearing! Yup, but let's take a closer look at that.
Romans 10:17

New King James Version
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

COMES BY
1537. ek or ex ►

Strong's Concordance

ek or ex: from, from out of​

Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

Here we see upon hearing the Gospel our faith that is ALREADY in us, put there by God, is ACTIVATED.
This enables the formally dead to believe and become born again.

John 1 ​

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Now who ARE these ones that received Him and became children of God?
Well, the VERY next verse tells us who they are:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So no matter how want to look at it, dead men can't choose ANYTHING, it is ALL of God.

 

[Johann]

Good thread to break this issue down.

We are ALL lost, until God does a work in us. We are spiritually DEAD. Not sick, or just MOSTLY dead.

Ephesians 2
New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

We are born in the spiritually fallen image and likeness of Adam.

Genesis 5:3
New King James Version
3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

So God then gifts us the faith to believe in Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8-9
New King James Version
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yes the Salvation is a gift, but the GRACE tells us here how we have been saved. It would be highly redundant to say "By the Grace gift you have ben saved". The MECHANISM by which the Grace is applied is the FAITH that is gifted to us by God.

EVERYTHING we have and are is from God.
You are intelligent? From God
You have wisdom? From God
You have the Word? From God
You have FAITH? FROM GOD.
James 1:17 NKJV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

So if faith isn't a gift from God where does it come from? Ah! I know.
Faith comes by hearing! Yup, but let's take a closer look at that.
Romans 10:17

New King James Version
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

COMES BY
1537. ek or ex ►

Strong's Concordance​

ek or ex: from, from out of

Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

Here we see upon hearing the Gospel our faith that is ALREADY in us, put there by God, is ACTIVATED.
This enables the formally dead to believe and become born again.

John 1 ​

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Now who ARE these ones that received Him and became children of God?
Well, the VERY next verse tells us who they are:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So no matter how want to look at it, dead men can't choose ANYTHING, it is ALL of God.

Although I agree with your post and the Scriptures given-full of dunamis-I hope you are not a Calvinist?-no offense.
J.