One other curious thing. He's talking about a very specific thing, not generalizing like sin in general, so when you look at his very personal words and a very specific or unique thing he's describing, to me he's without doubt describing something pertinent to himself. Just my observation on this. Agree or disagree if you like. It means nothing to me nor do I hold Paul or anyone else up above the propensity to sin or have human tendencies or issues other than Christ.
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?
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That could be just a figure of speech like we say "He would give his right arm for me ...."
In the OT, thorns in your sides" refers to human beings. Numbers 33:55 "But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as pricks in your eyes and thorns in your sides" and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell."
Since "we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places, Eph. 6:12", the thorn in his flesh was likely a demonic opponent assigned to Paul by satan who kept on stirring up trouble for Paul wherever he went. It was a messenger of satan, so it was sent to Paul by satan, not by God. It was sent to prevent Paul from continuing to be raised up above (huperahirOmai: Present Passive Subjunctive, 1st Person, Singular).
Paul's ministry was characterised by many works of power and groundbreaking revelations through the Holy Spirit. It could be that to discourage Paul from receiving more and sharing these with others, this messenger made Paul doing so emotionally and physically expensive, hoping Paul would back off. A similar thing happened in the case of Daniel. In Dan. 9 Daniel prays and while he is still praying Gabriel arrives with his answer. But in Ch. 10 Gabriel is opposed by the demonic prince of Persia to discourage Daniel and get him to give up praying and trusting. It takes three weeks for Gabriel to get through with the answer.
In the OT, thorns in your sides" refers to human beings. Numbers 33:55 "But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as pricks in your eyes and thorns in your sides" and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell."
Since "we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places, Eph. 6:12", the thorn in his flesh was likely a demonic opponent assigned to Paul by satan who kept on stirring up trouble for Paul wherever he went. It was a messenger of satan, so it was sent to Paul by satan, not by God. It was sent to prevent Paul from continuing to be raised up above (huperahirOmai: Present Passive Subjunctive, 1st Person, Singular).
Paul's ministry was characterised by many works of power and groundbreaking revelations through the Holy Spirit. It could be that to discourage Paul from receiving more and sharing these with others, this messenger made Paul doing so emotionally and physically expensive, hoping Paul would back off. A similar thing happened in the case of Daniel. In Dan. 9 Daniel prays and while he is still praying Gabriel arrives with his answer. But in Ch. 10 Gabriel is opposed by the demonic prince of Persia to discourage Daniel and get him to give up praying and trusting. It takes three weeks for Gabriel to get through with the answer.
But Paul said God gave him a thorn in the flesh.... not the same thing.
You guys are making a huge mountain out of a small molehill... this scripture is nothing more than Paul talking about the revelation he received, and his being transported to the "third heaven", whatever that is. He himself did not know if it was a spiritual or physical transportation.
He talked about the wonderous things he saw and heard... things he could not even speak of. And afterwards, to keep him from feeling superior to other brothers, God gave him some sort of physical ailment, a "thorn in the flesh", to help keep him humble.
The "thorn" he received was not mentioned specifically, but he prayed several times to have God remove it. God told him "no.... my grace is enough for you"..... in other words, "live with it".....
The two references mentioned in previous postings lead most scholars to believe that his "thorn" was something to do with his eyesight. That would match up with his "seeing" things that other humans did not, in the "third heaven"
Remember, when a human is in the presence of God, it is too wonderful for our human bodies to endure...
You guys are making a huge mountain out of a small molehill... this scripture is nothing more than Paul talking about the revelation he received, and his being transported to the "third heaven", whatever that is. He himself did not know if it was a spiritual or physical transportation.
He talked about the wonderous things he saw and heard... things he could not even speak of. And afterwards, to keep him from feeling superior to other brothers, God gave him some sort of physical ailment, a "thorn in the flesh", to help keep him humble.
The "thorn" he received was not mentioned specifically, but he prayed several times to have God remove it. God told him "no.... my grace is enough for you"..... in other words, "live with it".....
The two references mentioned in previous postings lead most scholars to believe that his "thorn" was something to do with his eyesight. That would match up with his "seeing" things that other humans did not, in the "third heaven"
Remember, when a human is in the presence of God, it is too wonderful for our human bodies to endure...
Argue with scripture all you want....
"7 Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!" 2 Corinthians 12:7 NASB
"7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to [b]buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure." NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Authorized KJV
"7 Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!" 2 Corinthians 12:7 NASB
"7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to [b]buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure." NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Authorized KJV
oh, good grief. God allowed it to happen. Besides, the disagreement was over whether it was a thorn in the side, or a thorn in the flesh, NOT who gave it to him.
Take your "gaslighting" garbage somewhere else. You are not impressing anyone here with your "interweb debating skills"
"It's like I'm playing cards with my sister's kids...."
Take your "gaslighting" garbage somewhere else. You are not impressing anyone here with your "interweb debating skills"
"It's like I'm playing cards with my sister's kids...."
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But it is mentioned. Thorn in the flesh is the effect, a messenger of Satan is the cause and that demon was slapping Paul around. It is what the scripture says.
2 Corinthians 12:7
even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant.
The word translated "trouble" is "kolaphize" and it means to harass, torment, cause trouble. God allowed a demon to harass Paul. Most likely the demon appealed to his sense of pride. From a human perspective Paul had much to be proud of as a Jew and as a Christian. Yet, as he rightly points out, whatever boasting is legitimate, is found only in the power of God given by means of His grace.
2Cor.12:9&10
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
"Thorn in the flesh" may well be an idiom much like we say "a pain in the butt". Personally, I think people get hung up on "thorn in the flesh" and immediately think physical ailment. But the scripture says the demon was sent to torment/harass/trouble Paul, not make him sick.
2 Corinthians 12:7
even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant.
The word translated "trouble" is "kolaphize" and it means to harass, torment, cause trouble. God allowed a demon to harass Paul. Most likely the demon appealed to his sense of pride. From a human perspective Paul had much to be proud of as a Jew and as a Christian. Yet, as he rightly points out, whatever boasting is legitimate, is found only in the power of God given by means of His grace.
2Cor.12:9&10
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
"Thorn in the flesh" may well be an idiom much like we say "a pain in the butt". Personally, I think people get hung up on "thorn in the flesh" and immediately think physical ailment. But the scripture says the demon was sent to torment/harass/trouble Paul, not make him sick.
You said -
You can't show that. Now you are saying that "God allowed it to happen" means "Paul said that God gave it to him".
There is no logical connection between those two claims. If I allow my child to be harassed by a bully because I am teaching him self-defence and I want him to push back for himself, that in no way means that I gave or sent the bully to my son.
You can't show that. Now you are saying that "God allowed it to happen" means "Paul said that God gave it to him".
There is no logical connection between those two claims. If I allow my child to be harassed by a bully because I am teaching him self-defence and I want him to push back for himself, that in no way means that I gave or sent the bully to my son.
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I'm going to respond to you one more time, then I'm done... What happened to Job? Did Satan just attack him and persecute him? No... God allowed it to happen. Do you honestly think that God took Paul to the third heaven, showed him things too wondrous to even talk about, then just tossed him back to earth to let Satan randomly attack him? God allowed whatever happened to Paul, to happen... as Paul said, it was allowed, to give him humility about his whole "walk with God".
And, once more...... this discussion was NOT about who attacked, who allowed the attack.... NONE of that. I simply responded to the claim that Paul had receved a thorn in his side.... a completely different expression from receiving a "thorn in the flesh".
Please stop
and try to stay with the flow of the conversation.
And, once more...... this discussion was NOT about who attacked, who allowed the attack.... NONE of that. I simply responded to the claim that Paul had receved a thorn in his side.... a completely different expression from receiving a "thorn in the flesh".
Please stop
and try to stay with the flow of the conversation.-
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You said, "What happened to Job? Did Satan just attack him and persecute him? No... God allowed it to happen. "
No doubt God being omnipotent, he could stop any person, human or spirit, doing anything. And the corollary to this is that He allows whatever happens to happen. But that is not the same thing as God gives to every person whatever happens to that person.
"7 Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, (the Greek here says "to keep me from being exalted") there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!" (the Greek here says "to keep me from being exalted) 2 Corinthians 12:7 NASB
The Greek text does say "the thorn" was given "to keep Paul from being exalted". It does no specify who might exalt Paul, whether Paul might be exalted by himself; or whether he might be exalt by God; or whether he might be exalted by other believers. The text does say "the thorn in the flesh" was "a messenger," not "a message"; and "from Satan", not "from God".
That's all we are told. Anything we might surmise beyond these facts is disputable. If it was a demonic spirit (a messenger) that satan had set onto Paul, and since the Holy Spirit gives believers authority over demons, it would be reasonable for God not to take the demonic oppression away, because we are told tha we should submit to God and resist the devil to make the demon flee from us." In other words, God's grace, the Holy Spirit, was sufficient for Paul to keep the demon from succeeding in its opposition to Paul.
It is logically fallacious to assume that what God does in one situation must be the general pattern by which He acts in all situations. In Job's case God had set a hedge around Job because of Job's righteousness. Satan accused God of buying Job's allegiance with blessings, so God removed most of the hedges protecting Job and allowed satan to get at Job to see whether Job would remain faithful and God-honouring. In the end Job's faith did fail, but he repented and was restored. But it was satan who attacked Job, and God did not send the devil to Job. He only allowed satan to do the evil satan himself had been lusting to do against Job.
No doubt God being omnipotent, he could stop any person, human or spirit, doing anything. And the corollary to this is that He allows whatever happens to happen. But that is not the same thing as God gives to every person whatever happens to that person.
"7 Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, (the Greek here says "to keep me from being exalted") there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!" (the Greek here says "to keep me from being exalted) 2 Corinthians 12:7 NASB
The Greek text does say "the thorn" was given "to keep Paul from being exalted". It does no specify who might exalt Paul, whether Paul might be exalted by himself; or whether he might be exalt by God; or whether he might be exalted by other believers. The text does say "the thorn in the flesh" was "a messenger," not "a message"; and "from Satan", not "from God".
That's all we are told. Anything we might surmise beyond these facts is disputable. If it was a demonic spirit (a messenger) that satan had set onto Paul, and since the Holy Spirit gives believers authority over demons, it would be reasonable for God not to take the demonic oppression away, because we are told tha we should submit to God and resist the devil to make the demon flee from us." In other words, God's grace, the Holy Spirit, was sufficient for Paul to keep the demon from succeeding in its opposition to Paul.
It is logically fallacious to assume that what God does in one situation must be the general pattern by which He acts in all situations. In Job's case God had set a hedge around Job because of Job's righteousness. Satan accused God of buying Job's allegiance with blessings, so God removed most of the hedges protecting Job and allowed satan to get at Job to see whether Job would remain faithful and God-honouring. In the end Job's faith did fail, but he repented and was restored. But it was satan who attacked Job, and God did not send the devil to Job. He only allowed satan to do the evil satan himself had been lusting to do against Job.
Paul's prayers weren't to Satan, but to God. Paul recognized what came his way via Satan was the answer to his prayers. Paul is giving insight into the spiritual realm, among other things.
This is the same Apostle who opened a letter introducing himself as a prisoner of the Lord. Physically he was in jail by the hand of Roman soldiers at the behest of Jewish religious leaders. And somehow he understood it to be the will of God.
This is the same Apostle who opened a letter introducing himself as a prisoner of the Lord. Physically he was in jail by the hand of Roman soldiers at the behest of Jewish religious leaders. And somehow he understood it to be the will of God.
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