J
JAPOV
Guest
In these last days, the faith of many is already being tested. Ultimately, many are going to deny their faith in Christ for the sake of economic security, and take the mark of the beast...
Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
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Thinking a person can lose their salvation is consistent with a LEGALISTIC theology. So at least there is that.
Deuteronomy 11:26-28
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
A legalistic theology is a serious lack of understanding of Salvation and most of the New Testament. But we both know that and are preaching to the choir at this point...
Thinking a person can lose their salvation is consistent with a LEGALISTIC theology. So at least there is that.
Deuteronomy 11:26-28
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
A legalistic theology is a serious lack of understanding of Salvation and most of the New Testament. But we both know that and are preaching to the choir at this point...
Ultimately, it comes down to self preservation, the cross was not enough.
P
pottersclay
Guest
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
P
pottersclay
Guest
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Very true!
For me, the clearest verse on eternal security is John 10:28. Jesus said that He "given them eternal life", and then He tells us the results of that action: "and they shall NEVER PERISH".
iow, when Jesus gives the gift of eternal life to someone, that someone shall never perish. Ever.
End of discussion. But there are those who don't believe what Jesus said. Unbelievable.
Not so-
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God]. [Joh_7:39; Act_2:33]
Eph 1:14 The Spirit is the N1guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God's own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
ἀκούσαντες akousantes|G191|V-APA-NMP|having heard τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the λόγον logon|G3056|N-AMS|word τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|- ἀληθείας, alētheias|G225|N-GFS|of truth, τὸ to|G3588|Art-ANS|the εὐαγγέλιον euangelion|G2098|N-ANS|gospel τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|of the σωτηρίας sōtērias|G4991|N-GFS|salvation ὑμῶν, hymōn|G4771|PPro-G2P|of you, ἐν en|G1722|Prep|in ᾧ hō|G3739|RelPro-DMS|whom καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also πιστεύσαντες pisteusantes|G4100|V-APA-NMP|having believed, ἐσφραγίσθητε esphragisthēte|G4972|V-AIP-2P|you were sealed τῷ tō|G3588|Art-DNS|with the Πνεύματι Pneumati|G4151|N-DNS|Spirit τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|- ἐπαγγελίας epangelias|G1860|N-GFS|of promise τῷ tō|G3588|Art-DNS|- Ἁγίῳ, Hagiō|G40|Adj-DNS|Holy,
Eph 1:14 ὅ* ho|G3739|RelPro-NNS|who ἐστιν
Eph 1:14 ὅ* ho|G3739|RelPro-NNS|who ἐστιν estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|is ἀρραβὼν arrabōn|G728|N-NMS|[the] guarantee τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|of the κληρονομίας klēronomias|G2817|N-GFS|inheritance ἡμῶν, hēmōn|G1473|PPro-G1P|of us, εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|to ἀπολύτρωσιν apolytrōsin|G629|N-AFS|[the] redemption τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|of the περιποιήσεως, peripoiēseōs|G4047|N-GFS|acquired possession, εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|to ἔπαινον epainon|G1868|N-AMS|[the] praise τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|of the δόξης doxēs|G1391|N-GFS|glory αὐτοῦ. autou|G846|PPro-GM3S|of Him.
ye were sealed. +*Eph_4:30, Exo_28:11, Lev_14:14; Lev_14:17, *Est_8:8, Son_4:12, Jer_32:10, +*Eze_9:4, Mat_27:66, Luk_15:22, +Joh_3:33; +*Joh_6:27, *Rom_4:11, *2Co_1:22, **2Ti_2:19, Rev_7:2-3.
holy. +*Joe_2:28, *Luk_11:13; *Luk_24:49, *Joh_14:16; *Joh_14:17; *Joh_14:26; *Joh_15:26; Joh_16:7-15, *Act_1:4; Act_2:16-22; Act_2:33; Act_9:31, Rom_5:5, Gal_3:14.
Spirit. FS121A1, +Luk_1:17 note. Rom_8:9; Rom_8:15-16, 2Co_5:5, Gal_4:6, Php_2:1.
of promise. Eze_36:27; *Eze_37:14, *+Luk_24:49, Joh_4:14; Joh_14:16-17; Joh_16:13, Act_1:4, Gal_3:2; Gal_3:14.
You may have a lot of "likes" but I go by what stands written-once sealed you cannot be "unsealed" by the Ruach HaKodesh.
ye were: Eph_4:30; Joh_6:27; Rom_4:11; 2Co_1:22; 2Ti_2:19; Rev_7:2
Shalom
J.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And a man or a woman that has among them a necromancer or a soothsayer certainly shall be killed, and they shall stone them with stones and their blood shall be upon them.'"
And a man or a woman that has among them a necromancer or a soothsayer certainly shall be killed, and they shall stone them with stones and their blood shall be upon them.'"
Seeing the many "likes" makes me wonder why some have no assurance re their salvation.
1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [which represents all that Jesus Christ is and does], so that you will know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have eternal life.
ye. This pronoun is plural, and it is argued by some that assurance is not valid for any specific individual, but only for the group, namely, the "body of Christ," the Church. Such a view does not accord with those Scriptures which affirm such assurance of the individual, such as Gal_2:20 note, and 2Ti_1:12.
may know. Gr. oida, Joh_8:55 note. To know with settled and absolute knowledge (Vincent). With a knowledge final and certain (Westcott). This is certainly one of the clearest statements in Scripture affirming that we may know in this life that we now have everlasting life—we are not left to wait until we die to discover whether we have eternal life or not. 1Jn_5:10; 1Jn_5:19, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_2:29; 1Jn_3:14, Pro_9:9; Pro_22:21, Joh_14:20, Rom_8:15-17, 2Co_5:1, Gal_4:6; Gal_4:2 *Col_2:2, *Tit_1:12, *Heb_6:11; +*Heb_10:22, +*2Pe_1:10; +*2Pe_1:11, *Rev_3:20.
ye have. Present tense, active voice, indicative mode, second person plural verb. Not will have, or merely hope we might have, but now have in the present: such is our assurance of eternal life. Yet, this assurance is grounded upon the individual believer possessing the marks of a true believer discussed throughout this epistle. A true believer lives (1) in constant fellowship with God, 1Jn_1:3; 1Jn_1:7; 1Jn_2:6, (2) true to the Gospel, 1Jn_2:24, (3) with love for others, 1Jn_3:18-19; 1Jn_4:7, (4) in obedience to God, +**1Jn_2:3 note. 1Jn_3:23; 1Jn_5:2-5, (5) untainted by the world, 1Jn_2:15-17; 1Jn_5:4-5, (6) consistently victorious over Satan, 1Jn_3:8-9; 1Jn_4:4; 1Jn_5:18, (7) concerned about souls, 1Jn_5:16; see +*Jas_5:20, (8) assured of personal salvation, 1Jn_4:17; **1Jn_5:13.
Shalom
J.
You've got that all wrong. The term "deny" the Greek carries with it the idea of "contradict".
Then read verse 13.
Go way back to Genesis Chapter 3:24.
After the trial, confession and acquittal (and covering by The Blood) of both Adam and Eve,
God set cherubim to guard access to the tree of life so that Adam and Eve could not possibly ever eat of it.......and live forever in a sinful condition.
There is your eternal security.
ἀρνέομαι
arnéomai; contracted arnoúmai, fut. arnḗsomai, deponent. To deny.
(I) To deny, refuse (Heb_11:24).
(II) Related to previous meaning with the acc. of person, to refuse someone, not to know or recognize him, to reject him either in the face of a former relationship or better knowledge.
To deny, decline, reject, give up (Mat_10:33; 2Ti_2:12-13, to renounce one's own character, to be inconsistent with oneself; 1Jn_2:22-23, denying God to be the Father of Christ and Christ to be the Son of God).
It can include the idea of falsehood or contradiction, not only with reference to the obj. but on the part of the subj. against himself (Mat_10:33; Luk_12:9; Luk_22:57, denying that he had any connection with him; Act_3:13-14; Act_7:35; 2Pe_2:1; 1Jn_2:22; Jud_1:4).
(III) As used with something as its obj., to reject anything, retract, renounce, deny, disown depending on the context (1Ti_5:8; 2Ti_3:5; Tit_1:16, to deny by actions that there is a God; Tit_2:12; Rev_2:13; Rev_3:8).
Used in an absolute sense in 2Ti_2:12.
(IV) To gainsay without further specification of the obj. (Luk_8:45; Joh_1:20; Act_4:16; Tit_1:16). Falsely to deny, disown (Mat_26:70, Mat_26:72; Mar_14:68, Mar_14:70; Joh_18:25, Joh_18:27). Opposite of homologéō (G3670), to confess or say together (Mat_10:33; Joh_1:20; Tit_1:16).
How will the Lord Jesus deny believers? In Mat_10:33, "him will I also deny [arnḗsomai, the fut. indic. of arnéomai] before my Father which is in heaven."
This may refer to the rewards of the believers, since the word here does not necessarily mean an utter denial as the case will be in the day of judgment for those who acted as would-be Christian miracle workers. To these the Lord will say, "I never knew you" (Mat_7:21-23). In Mat_10:33, however, we find the believers before the Father who is in heaven being recognized for their consistency and fidelity in witnessing while on earth. The teaching here is that the recognition in heaven will be proportionate to the confession (homología [G3671], acknowledgment or witnessing) on earth.
A similar statement is found in Luk_12:8, and then in verse nine we read, "But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God."
The first verb "denieth" is arnēsámenos, the aor. part. of arnéomai, which should literally translate "he who did deny me" (a.t.).
The aor. is constantive and possibly has in view any single moment in one's lifetime (although we cannot be dogmatic because the constantive could also be considering the entirety of one's lifespan). Here the word arnéomai stands in contrast to homologéō (G3670), to acknowledge, witness, confess, which verb in verse eight is also in the subjunctive aor. which refers to acts of the acknowledgment of Jesus Christ before men. The second time the verb is used in regard to the Son of man, it is homologḗsei, which is the fut. indic. and which again refers to the occasion of the acknowledgment by Christ of those times in which the believer confessed Him before men. In verses eight and nine this acknowledgment by the Lord Jesus Christ of the confessing or the denying believer is said to be made before the angels of God. This is in heaven for only there are the angels of God. It is difficult to imagine that these angels and the believers would be found in the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mat_25:41). The angels referred to in Luk_12:8-9 are God's unfallen angels, while in Mat_25:41 reference is made to the devil's messengers, those angels who became demons because of their disobedience to God (Isa_14:12-15; Job_4:18; 2Pe_2:4; Jud_1:6; Rev_12:9). In Luk_12:9 the verb used in regard to the denial is not arnéomai but the comp. aparnēthḗsetai, the fut. pass. of aparnéomai (G533), which could be taken as meaning that the denial by the Lord Jesus Christ, the apárnēsis, is in direct proportion to the árnēsis, man's denial.
In 2Ti_2:12 we have another occurrence of the denial by Jesus Christ in the future: "if we deny him, he also will deny us." The verb "deny" in Gr. is arnēsómetha, which is the fut. indic. with punctiliar meaning, again perhaps referring to occasions of refusing to confess Jesus Christ. In the proportion that we refuse to confess Him, He will also deny (arnḗsetai) us, again in the fut. indic. which refers to occasions of not confessing before His Father and His angels as indicated in Mat_10:33; Luk_12:9. The expression in 2Ti_2:13 "he cannot deny himself" has the verb arnḗsasthai, the aor. inf. This again refers to occasions of denying Himself, meaning not to live up to His character of justice of reward proportionate to our witnessing for Him on earth. At no time will the Lord show Himself inconsistent in His judgment of our works, i.e., confessing Jesus Christ before men as well as our lack of such confession which is denying Him. It is indeed noteworthy that in 1Jn_2:22-23 the verb is in the pres. part. three times, arnoúmenos, which indicates a life of continuous denial that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of the Father. He who constantly denies the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be a believer. He is called an antichrist. The same is true in Jud_1:4 where the word "denying" is again arnoúmenoi, constantly denying. These, of course, are called ungodly men, worthy of condemnation.
Deriv.: aparnéomai (G533), to deny.
Syn.: antitássomai (G498), to place oneself against, oppose, resist; aporríptō (G641), to hurl off, reject; aposteréō (G650), to despoil, keep back; periphronéō (G4065), to despise, depreciate; apōthéomai (G683), to reject, push away; apotrépō (G665), to deflect, avoid, turn away; apophérō (G667), to bear off, carry away; aparnéomai (G533), to deny completely; apotássomai (G657), to renounce; paraitéomai (G3868), to avoid, reject; apodokimázō (G593), to disapprove; athetéō (G114), to break faith with, reject; ekptúō (G1609), to spit out.
Ant.: homologéō (G3670), to confess, witness, say in agreement with; prosdéchomai (G4327), to accept; paréchō (G3930), to present, to bring; sunaírō (G4868), to reckon, agree together; egkrínō (G1469), to judge in, count among; apodéchomai (G588), to take fully, welcome, approve; euarestéomai (G2100), to be pleased, gratified entirely; eudokéō (G2106), to approve, think well of, be pleased; paradéchomai (G3858), to admit, delight in, receive; anagnōrízō (G319), to recognize.
Not JUST contradiction brother.
J.
I think the modern culture has diluted the use of words in the Bible. The typical translation uses believe and faith a lot, but they are actually different forms of the same Greek word (pistis I believe). If these words were translated as "trust," it would more accurately reflect the Greek sameness of these two words, and it would also better communicate what is required. John 3:16 points out that the requirement is to trust in God's only begotten Son. It does not mean to simply believe it and state it as a fact. There is a trusting that is required for everything to start working and a continuous trusting required for things to continue working. By means of trust and not actually doing anything, you gain much more than you could ever get credit for by means of any work you do for the Lord. To believe something is a fact is a simple black and white thing. It's either off or on. To trust is a thing with levels and departments. You might trust the Lord a lot in one area but very little in another. This reveals there's a lot of room for improvement. This also reveals that one can stop trusting altogether. There are even people I've known of that have gone from belief to non-belief.
People these days say it is just a belief or they refer to a set of beliefs as a faith. We seem to have lost the implication that if you believe something, then you also act in accordance with it. If you really believed the floor was lava, you wouldn't step on the floor. Stepping on the floor shows you don't believe it. The world and those who don't put any trust in the Lord do not want you to act in accordance with your beliefs. There is a pressure put on you to consider them a trivial, unimportant thing. Ultimately, belief without trust is the result. This is similar to what James point out. He sets up a scenario where a brother (this implies a believer the person would have to be acquainted with to know they are a believer) is lacking the basic physical necessities of life. If you wish him well, and do nothing to help him, you obviously don't believe in a real and true version of Jesus. It's like he sets up "very easy"
mode and depicts someone failing at that. Such faith and belief is dead.
mode and depicts someone failing at that. Such faith and belief is dead.
Precious friend, you mean kinda like this?:
I stand at the airport, and looking out the window, I see an airplane, and
[ intellectually in my head ] I believe that, yes, that vehicle "will get me to
my destination," but Until I "actually get on board, and trust [ faith with All 'my
heart!' ] my life into the hands of the pilot," I will never "get to my destination,"
eh?
God's Simple Will!
Amen.
Of course not. But a good fit in consideration of context of those verses.
Believing is a change of state. From death to life.
Once accomplished.......irreversible.