What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?
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Here is a summary
Romans 7 shows us the contrast between living bound to the law and living by the Spirit of God. We are no longer in bondage as slaves and are now free to belong to God. The struggle with sin may still be evident, but Paul maintains we have no obligation to succumb to it.
Show me in Romans 7 Where Paul mentions he has a thorn in His Side -in Romans 7
This is the Correct Scripture for your Thread Title ----being conceited has noting to do with the LUST OF THE FLESH ----Your taking a Chapter and trying to make it say what you want it to say ------your in the wrong Book for the Thorn in Paul's flesh
Romans 7 shows us the contrast between living bound to the law and living by the Spirit of God. We are no longer in bondage as slaves and are now free to belong to God. The struggle with sin may still be evident, but Paul maintains we have no obligation to succumb to it.
Show me in Romans 7 Where Paul mentions he has a thorn in His Side -in Romans 7
This is the Correct Scripture for your Thread Title ----being conceited has noting to do with the LUST OF THE FLESH ----Your taking a Chapter and trying to make it say what you want it to say ------your in the wrong Book for the Thorn in Paul's flesh
Did you not read the Romans 7 text I posted?
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.
What is 'concupiscence'?
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.
"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)
Romans 7:7-11
"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.
What is 'concupiscence'?
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.
"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)
Romans 7:7-11
"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
This is your whole opening post that you yourself QUOTED
I say your asking this QUESTION --------
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?
First off ---------The answer to this Question is in 2 Corinthians 11 ------not in Romans 7----
Second -----Romans 7 ---Paul is speaking to people who know the LAW ----
You need to read and understand this whole Chapter------------------------- as your taking one part of it and trying to mix it in with 2 Corinthians-12---the thorn in Paul's flesh -----
this is the Chapter to your verse --
so lets see here ----so we see here he calls them brothers and sisters ----so Paul is Saved and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit --and is teaching here about the law and how the Law shows sin ----
I would say he is teaching New Converts -----notice verse 5 -below --is in the past ----
So your trying to say the thorn in Paul's flesh is lust -----and Paul is saying that was in the past ------the law showed him his wrongful desires -----he died to his old self and now is alive in Christ -----
Romans 7
Easy-to-Read Version
An Example From Marriage
7 Brothers and sisters, you all understand the Law of Moses. So surely you know that the law rules over people only while they are alive.
2 It’s like what the law says about marriage: A woman must stay married to her husband as long as he is alive. But if her husband dies, she is made free from the law of marriage. 3 But if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, the law says she is guilty of adultery. But if her husband dies, she is made free from the law of marriage. So if she marries another man after her husband dies, she is not guilty of adultery.
4 In the same way, my brothers and sisters, your old selves died and you became free from the law through the body of Christ. Now you belong to someone else. You belong to the one who was raised from death. We belong to Christ so that we can be used in service to God.
5 In the past we were ruled by our sinful selves. The law made us want to do sinful things.
And those sinful desires controlled our bodies, so that what we did only brought us spiritual death.
6 In the past the law held us as prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the law. So now we serve God in a new way, not in the old way, with the written rules. Now we serve God in the new way, with the Spirit.
Now watch here--------- Paul is telling these people about his Past and how the law showed him what sin was -----So Paul is teaching here -----
Our Fight Against Sin
7 You might think I am saying that sin and the law are the same. That is not true.
But the law was the only way I could learn what sin means.
I would never have known it is wrong to want something that is not mine. But the law said, “You must not want what belongs to someone else.”[a]
8 And sin found a way to use that command and make me want all kinds of things that weren’t mine. So sin came to me because of the command. But without the law, sin has no power.
9 Before I knew the law, I was alive. But when I heard the law’s command, sin began to live,
10 and I died spiritually. The command was meant to bring life, but for me it brought death.
11 Sin found a way to fool me by using the command to make me die.
12 Now the law is holy, and the command is holy and right and good.
13 Does this mean that something that is good brought death to me? No, it was sin that used the good command to bring me death. This shows how terrible sin really is. It can use a good command to produce a result that shows sin at its very worst.
I say your asking this QUESTION --------
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?
First off ---------The answer to this Question is in 2 Corinthians 11 ------not in Romans 7----
Second -----Romans 7 ---Paul is speaking to people who know the LAW ----
You need to read and understand this whole Chapter------------------------- as your taking one part of it and trying to mix it in with 2 Corinthians-12---the thorn in Paul's flesh -----
this is the Chapter to your verse --
so lets see here ----so we see here he calls them brothers and sisters ----so Paul is Saved and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit --and is teaching here about the law and how the Law shows sin ----
I would say he is teaching New Converts -----notice verse 5 -below --is in the past ----
So your trying to say the thorn in Paul's flesh is lust -----and Paul is saying that was in the past ------the law showed him his wrongful desires -----he died to his old self and now is alive in Christ -----
Romans 7
Easy-to-Read Version
An Example From Marriage
7 Brothers and sisters, you all understand the Law of Moses. So surely you know that the law rules over people only while they are alive.
2 It’s like what the law says about marriage: A woman must stay married to her husband as long as he is alive. But if her husband dies, she is made free from the law of marriage. 3 But if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, the law says she is guilty of adultery. But if her husband dies, she is made free from the law of marriage. So if she marries another man after her husband dies, she is not guilty of adultery.
4 In the same way, my brothers and sisters, your old selves died and you became free from the law through the body of Christ. Now you belong to someone else. You belong to the one who was raised from death. We belong to Christ so that we can be used in service to God.
5 In the past we were ruled by our sinful selves. The law made us want to do sinful things.
And those sinful desires controlled our bodies, so that what we did only brought us spiritual death.
6 In the past the law held us as prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the law. So now we serve God in a new way, not in the old way, with the written rules. Now we serve God in the new way, with the Spirit.
Now watch here--------- Paul is telling these people about his Past and how the law showed him what sin was -----So Paul is teaching here -----
Our Fight Against Sin
7 You might think I am saying that sin and the law are the same. That is not true.
But the law was the only way I could learn what sin means.
I would never have known it is wrong to want something that is not mine. But the law said, “You must not want what belongs to someone else.”[a]
8 And sin found a way to use that command and make me want all kinds of things that weren’t mine. So sin came to me because of the command. But without the law, sin has no power.
9 Before I knew the law, I was alive. But when I heard the law’s command, sin began to live,
10 and I died spiritually. The command was meant to bring life, but for me it brought death.
11 Sin found a way to fool me by using the command to make me die.
12 Now the law is holy, and the command is holy and right and good.
13 Does this mean that something that is good brought death to me? No, it was sin that used the good command to bring me death. This shows how terrible sin really is. It can use a good command to produce a result that shows sin at its very worst.
The Greek word used that is translated "concupiscence" is "epithumia" and is variously translated, lusts, desires or covetousness so it is not specifically sexual in nature but is used generally as it says "all manner" of lusts/desires/coveting.
Also, Paul tells us exactly what his thorn in the flesh is within the passage, "a messenger of Satan".
Common sense should alert us to the fact it cannot be a problem of the "flesh" (in the sense of wrong desires) as Paul would not ask for such a thing to be taken away as he teaches constantly the way to overcome such problems is by walking in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
IMO it is unlikely to be a physical ailment as none are ever mentioned concerning Paul and he would have asked for healing rather than deliverance.
It would appear the Lord sent a demon to harass Paul to stop him from getting a "big head".
Also, Paul tells us exactly what his thorn in the flesh is within the passage, "a messenger of Satan".
Common sense should alert us to the fact it cannot be a problem of the "flesh" (in the sense of wrong desires) as Paul would not ask for such a thing to be taken away as he teaches constantly the way to overcome such problems is by walking in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
IMO it is unlikely to be a physical ailment as none are ever mentioned concerning Paul and he would have asked for healing rather than deliverance.
It would appear the Lord sent a demon to harass Paul to stop him from getting a "big head".
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"A messenger of Satan" means what? Satan tempts and and usually consistent with one's inherent weakness. The messenger of Satan is Satan tempting with something enticing.
And how can it not be "a problem of the flesh" as you've insinuated by your "common sense" logic when the very words of the scripture says it IS a problem of the flesh in verse 7
"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."
And because Paul was tempted continually by Satan, who obviously attacked Paul in his weakness, Paul's lusts, concupiscence, it doesn't mean Paul succumbed to the temptation.
I'm not buying what you're selling because the words of scripture suggest otherwise.
And how can it not be "a problem of the flesh" as you've insinuated by your "common sense" logic when the very words of the scripture says it IS a problem of the flesh in verse 7
"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."
And because Paul was tempted continually by Satan, who obviously attacked Paul in his weakness, Paul's lusts, concupiscence, it doesn't mean Paul succumbed to the temptation.
I'm not buying what you're selling because the words of scripture suggest otherwise.
First -------Read the Chapter yourself --you need the understanding ---which right now it seems you are incapable of so if you really are a Christian ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into the truth of the scripture instead of you just trying to to it yourself ----I posted what is in the Chapter already in this Thread so you can just go and find it if your really interested in knowing what is in the Chapter ------
Second ===your taking Scripture out of its context ---Romans 7 as I explained which again is beyond your pay grade of understanding ---is telling other believers what the Law showed him about his previous life -----but it is pointless as if your a Christian your still on the MILK PHASE of understanding and cannot grasp what Paul is explaining in Romans 7 -----the Holy Spirit will only give you what you can understand ---and your NOT UNDERSTANDING ROMANS 7 as it is in the full CONTEXT -----it is beyond your understanding
Paul in Romans 7 is speaking in the PAST TENSE ------he is describing what he was like when the Law was in place ---he is no longer under the law ----and he is explaining to these other Christians --sin has no hold over him or them anymore ---
Second ===your taking Scripture out of its context ---Romans 7 as I explained which again is beyond your pay grade of understanding ---is telling other believers what the Law showed him about his previous life -----but it is pointless as if your a Christian your still on the MILK PHASE of understanding and cannot grasp what Paul is explaining in Romans 7 -----the Holy Spirit will only give you what you can understand ---and your NOT UNDERSTANDING ROMANS 7 as it is in the full CONTEXT -----it is beyond your understanding
Paul in Romans 7 is speaking in the PAST TENSE ------he is describing what he was like when the Law was in place ---he is no longer under the law ----and he is explaining to these other Christians --sin has no hold over him or them anymore ---
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When I was about 10yo, my nephew and I were running around and he bumped me. I lost my my balance and fell into my dad's rose bush. I had a lot of thorns in my flesh yet not one of them was of my flesh. Like I said, common sense. The problem was a messenger of Satan trying to get Paul to walk after his flesh instead of after the Spirit. If you have never had to deal with demonic pressure, I doubt you will understand the difference. When the problem is of the flesh, the temptation comes from within. Paul was facing pressure from without.
It is also far more likely the demon was attacking Paul through his strengths based on verse 7. Paul was intelligent, knowledgeable, had received many revelations and was zealous for truth and righteousness. He is a spiritual giant and therefore the demon more likely appealed to these things to try and make him think he was better than others. Paul knew he was the chief of sinners so it set up a nagging influence that contravened the truth and was threatening his patience. It was the equivalent of a "spiritual dripping tap".
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Romans 7 passage you quoted should be linked in the way you did with the 2Cor.12 passage. They speak of very different circumstances. Romans 7 pressure comes from within, the 2Cor. pressure comes from without.
I'm certainly not buying what your selling because we would have to believe that Paul takes delight in his sinful nature if what you say is true.
2 Corinthians 12:10
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
It is also far more likely the demon was attacking Paul through his strengths based on verse 7. Paul was intelligent, knowledgeable, had received many revelations and was zealous for truth and righteousness. He is a spiritual giant and therefore the demon more likely appealed to these things to try and make him think he was better than others. Paul knew he was the chief of sinners so it set up a nagging influence that contravened the truth and was threatening his patience. It was the equivalent of a "spiritual dripping tap".
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Romans 7 passage you quoted should be linked in the way you did with the 2Cor.12 passage. They speak of very different circumstances. Romans 7 pressure comes from within, the 2Cor. pressure comes from without.
I'm certainly not buying what your selling because we would have to believe that Paul takes delight in his sinful nature if what you say is true.
2 Corinthians 12:10
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
There is a clear difference between having human desires (which is of course normal for all of us) and using those desires to indulge in sexual pleasure. Concupiscence is taking the temptation to sin and indulging in and enjoying the sin.
Here is a direct quote from what you said is Paul's thorn in the flesh:
The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.
What is 'concupiscence'?
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.
Saying that Paul's thorn in the flesh was the sin of concupiscence and that God said I won't remove it from you gives a wide open green light for all of us to enjoy carnal pleasure.
I disagree with you.
Aside from what I say above nowhere does the Biblical text say that Paul's thorn in the flesh was concupiscence. I see that others have already clearly explained that to you.
Here is a direct quote from what you said is Paul's thorn in the flesh:
The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.
What is 'concupiscence'?
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.
Saying that Paul's thorn in the flesh was the sin of concupiscence and that God said I won't remove it from you gives a wide open green light for all of us to enjoy carnal pleasure.
I disagree with you.
Aside from what I say above nowhere does the Biblical text say that Paul's thorn in the flesh was concupiscence. I see that others have already clearly explained that to you.
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[B]DJT_47[/B] ---do yourself a favor and read and absorb what this person is trying to tell you -----
No one clearly explained anything nor did you now. What people think is that Paul was somehow above temptation and don't want to accept the fact that he was human, and attacked by Satan at his weakness. He was not, nor was David who had such issues, nor Solomon who had a thousand wives. What does Romans 7 mean, other than you don't like it?
Common sense makes the linkage plausible. All scripture is similarly linked. You don't get a complete message for a lot of subjects by reading and relying on only scripture, such as the subject of salvation. It's necessary to limk scripture with scripture to gain a complete understanding of the subject message being studied. Do you get the complete message by reading only one of the four gospels? No. Your logic is illogical.
I think others have stated quite clearly what they mean. It is your cloudiness of thought that is getting in the way. 
There is no way Paul took pleasure in his depravity, only evil people take pleasure in how depraved they are. Being weak is in no way the same as being wrong. Romans 7 deals with the innate wrongness, what we call the "sin nature", that all of us are born with. It is a corruption in the flesh that tempts us from within to do the wrong thing. On the other hand, 2Cor.12 deals with pressure that comes from without, in this case a demon, that tempts us to do wrong. It does not mean Paul fell for the temptation or that he was beyond it's ability to be affected by it. It was obviously causing him pain for he sought the Lord three times to remove the problem.
If the real problem was his own sin nature in the flesh (as you are suggesting), there is only one way for that to be removed and that would be to die and be removed from his body. While that is not an option, the way to deal with such problems is to see yourself dead to sin and alive to Christ by means of God's grace and walk in the filling (power source) of the Holy Spirit. You don't pray to God to take away the sin nature.
Now, 2Cor.12:7-10 deals with pressures that come to us from outside. Sometimes those pressures are caused by our own bad decisions due to ignorance, sometimes they come from willful bad decisions and sometimes they come because God allows them to come into our lives through no fault of our own. Whatever the manner of their coming, God allows such things so that we might learn to rest in His provision, His grace, and His timing. As the scripture says, His power is made perfect in our weakness.
You are trying to tie two pieces of scripture together that deal with two distinct situations. Paul tells us exactly what his "thorn in the flesh" is, a messenger of Satan. That would be a demon.
There is no way Paul took pleasure in his depravity, only evil people take pleasure in how depraved they are. Being weak is in no way the same as being wrong. Romans 7 deals with the innate wrongness, what we call the "sin nature", that all of us are born with. It is a corruption in the flesh that tempts us from within to do the wrong thing. On the other hand, 2Cor.12 deals with pressure that comes from without, in this case a demon, that tempts us to do wrong. It does not mean Paul fell for the temptation or that he was beyond it's ability to be affected by it. It was obviously causing him pain for he sought the Lord three times to remove the problem.
If the real problem was his own sin nature in the flesh (as you are suggesting), there is only one way for that to be removed and that would be to die and be removed from his body. While that is not an option, the way to deal with such problems is to see yourself dead to sin and alive to Christ by means of God's grace and walk in the filling (power source) of the Holy Spirit. You don't pray to God to take away the sin nature.
Now, 2Cor.12:7-10 deals with pressures that come to us from outside. Sometimes those pressures are caused by our own bad decisions due to ignorance, sometimes they come from willful bad decisions and sometimes they come because God allows them to come into our lives through no fault of our own. Whatever the manner of their coming, God allows such things so that we might learn to rest in His provision, His grace, and His timing. As the scripture says, His power is made perfect in our weakness.
You are trying to tie two pieces of scripture together that deal with two distinct situations. Paul tells us exactly what his "thorn in the flesh" is, a messenger of Satan. That would be a demon.
No, quite the contrary, common sense doesn't link it because Paul would not take pleasure in his own innate wrongness and is clearly relieved it is overcome by Christ.
2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Romans 7:24&25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
There is a difference between being wretched and being weak.
2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Romans 7:24&25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
There is a difference between being wretched and being weak.
I think others have stated quite clearly what they mean. It is your cloudiness of thought that is getting in the way.
There is no way Paul took pleasure in his depravity, only evil people take pleasure in how depraved they are. Being weak is in no way the same as being wrong. Romans 7 deals with the innate wrongness, what we call the "sin nature", that all of us are born with. It is a corruption in the flesh that tempts us from within to do the wrong thing. On the other hand, 2Cor.12 deals with pressure that comes from without, in this case a demon, that tempts us to do wrong. It does not mean Paul fell for the temptation or that he was beyond it's ability to be affected by it. It was obviously causing him pain for he sought the Lord three times to remove the problem.
If the real problem was his own sin nature in the flesh (as you are suggesting), there is only one way for that to be removed and that would be to die and be removed from his body. While that is not an option, the way to deal with such problems is to see yourself dead to sin and alive to Christ by means of God's grace and walk in the filling (power source) of the Holy Spirit. You don't pray to God to take away the sin nature.
Now, 2Cor.12:7-10 deals with pressures that come to us from outside. Sometimes those pressures are caused by our own bad decisions due to ignorance, sometimes they come from willful bad decisions and sometimes they come because God allows them to come into our lives through no fault of our own. Whatever the manner of their coming, God allows such things so that we might learn to rest in His provision, His grace, and His timing. As the scripture says, His power is made perfect in our weakness.
You are trying to tie two pieces of scripture together that deal with two distinct situations. Paul tells us exactly what his "thorn in the flesh" is, a messenger of Satan. That would be a demon.
There is no way Paul took pleasure in his depravity, only evil people take pleasure in how depraved they are. Being weak is in no way the same as being wrong. Romans 7 deals with the innate wrongness, what we call the "sin nature", that all of us are born with. It is a corruption in the flesh that tempts us from within to do the wrong thing. On the other hand, 2Cor.12 deals with pressure that comes from without, in this case a demon, that tempts us to do wrong. It does not mean Paul fell for the temptation or that he was beyond it's ability to be affected by it. It was obviously causing him pain for he sought the Lord three times to remove the problem.
If the real problem was his own sin nature in the flesh (as you are suggesting), there is only one way for that to be removed and that would be to die and be removed from his body. While that is not an option, the way to deal with such problems is to see yourself dead to sin and alive to Christ by means of God's grace and walk in the filling (power source) of the Holy Spirit. You don't pray to God to take away the sin nature.
Now, 2Cor.12:7-10 deals with pressures that come to us from outside. Sometimes those pressures are caused by our own bad decisions due to ignorance, sometimes they come from willful bad decisions and sometimes they come because God allows them to come into our lives through no fault of our own. Whatever the manner of their coming, God allows such things so that we might learn to rest in His provision, His grace, and His timing. As the scripture says, His power is made perfect in our weakness.
You are trying to tie two pieces of scripture together that deal with two distinct situations. Paul tells us exactly what his "thorn in the flesh" is, a messenger of Satan. That would be a demon.