What is the Difference Between "Standards" and "Shallowness"?

SoldierofChrist · Feb 2, 2024

All you can really ask for is that whoever you take as your spouse remains loving and faithful to you, through good times AND bad. This is a promise that you never know until you make it whether it will last thats why its a leap of faith and for sure dont think its never going to be tested.

Very true

Pardizzle · Feb 2, 2024

Dino246 said:

It’s simple: if a woman has preferences, they are ‘standards’, but if a man has preferences, it is ‘shallowness’.

Or, in the case of ethnicity or other basis, if “I” think “you” are not attractive, then “I” have standards, but if “you” don’t think “I” am attractive, you’re shallow.

I’d like to say that’s sarcasm, but it’s what many people actually believe… though I suspect most such have never considered the utter hypocrisy of their beliefs.

It's funny because it's true!

PennEd · Feb 10, 2024

Dino246 said:

This a study done by a woman. So the ladies need to hear what her research revealed:

It really gives you a sense as to why in western culture today there are so many in there 40s wondering why they never found “the one”:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1029081744847183?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=roAVj8

MsMediator · Feb 11, 2024

PennEd said:

As women get older, they compromise/"settle" more on matters like looks and income, however they are just as picky if not more on things that really matter like personality and emotional maturity, etc. I think the video is describing younger women. Women in their 20s/early 30s get a lot of attention; I would say basically from most men on any given dating website even if these guys are just browsing. Plus, being younger and vain both men and women are naturally more superficial when it comes to looks (and I guess women on income). Men are less picky on mate selection because they are easily sexually attracted to a larger number of women (so there are numerous Ms. Perfects). I would not be surprised if this factor alone drives the man's decision in mate selection. Women do not generally get sexually attracted to a wide range of men, at the same level of intensity.

What is unsaid in the video is that most single men are looking for younger women, and in that sense men are very picky. Once women have passed the desired age group, they become "invisible" more or less to the guys they are seeking. Now, the guys contacting them are much older, very often at a different stage of life and the women are not that interested. Assuming the population is approximately 50% men and 50% women suggests that there are a lot of single men too. The reality is that we have a lot of older single women seeking stable age-appropriate men, and a lot of older single men chasing/competing for a small group of women.

Moses_Young · Feb 11, 2024

seoulsearch said:

I think the "standards" someone has for a future mate is really just a measure of how highly that someone views himself. People with very high standards and requirements, but who are also worth the effort, might still find a mate. People with lower standards/requirements than they are worth might find themselves snatched-up, so to speak - everyone loves a bargain. People with high standards who are not worth the effort might simply go through life complaining about the opposite sex's poor taste.

Probably all of us can be shallow to some degree - some certainly moreso than others, but we all have our quirks. With your talk about how some guys you met wouldn't consider Asian girls, or four-eyes, or fat chicks, or some other particular feature - I think in many cases, there are core requirements, and preferences. Preferences are simply used to make the selection process easier but often spoken of to others as requirements. If a girl didn't make the selection criteria, but was able to befriend said guy, I still believe if she worked hard enough, she could entice him to fall in love, and the described preference would then be overlooked. This does presume it was a preference rather than a core requirement (which can be hard to determine).

CarriePie · Feb 11, 2024

Moses_Young said:

I just gotta reply to this part, if I may. In my opinion, a woman should not work "hard enough" to entice a man. I just think this is setting her up for low self esteem, or even lower self esteem if she already has low self esteem. Why would anyone, man or woman, want to be with someone who doesn't prefer them? Why would they want to work "hard enough" to entice someone who doesn't prefer them? I am being serious with these questions.

In my opinion, it's best to be with someone who genuinely wants to be with you. In my experiences, it makes a big difference. Better to be alone than badly accompanied. Be careful who you work hard for!

----

This part is not a reply to Moses. It's just something that I noticed when reading comments to an article I read a few days ago...

The article was about Selena Gomez. I am not a Selena Gomez fan, her music and shows are just not something I am into. I do think she is gorgeous and I thought it was great that she is much happier with her new beau, who seems to be much better for her than Justin Bieber (who reportedly wasn't a very good bf at all). The article showed her in the dress she wore to the Emmy Awards. I don't watch this stuff and only read the article because I thought her dress was stunning (even though they said it wasn't lol). Anyway...what I want to talk about are the comments to the article. There were men in the comments talking about her weight. I thought to myself, here is a stunningly gorgeous woman who I personally think looks more gorgeous at her size now and she is being criticized???

Folks, work on your self esteem! You have to get to the point where it doesn't matter if others or even the one you are with doesn't prefer you, make sure you prefer you. Not in a self centered way, but in a confident way. As Nayyirah Waheed said, "If someone does not want me it is not the end of the world. But if I do not want me, the world is nothing but endings."

Most important above all, seek the Lord and His guidance. He wants you!

Subhumanoidal · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

I mostly agree, but I only partly disagree because of my own story.
When I met my current gf I did Not want to date anymore. I was tired of being hurt and let down and so decided I was done for good.
Then she came along. She expressed an attraction to me. Naturally I declined, but we stayed in regular contact. She still sometimes brought up her attraction to me. Months later I had to admit I was having a change of heart. In the end we got together. That was just over 4 years ago.

This is in contrast to a woman I met on here once that expressed an interest. I had zero interest in her, yet she came after me aggressively. Telling her no, telling her reasons why it couldn't work, even lying about having a gf didn't sway her.
Eventually I had to cut her out of my life.

So some level of pursuit can pay off. Sometimes a person just needs time to get to know you to grow attracted.
I think the three biggest keys are
-don't push hard or try to force it
-pay attention to how much they push back and why, to judge if you're wasting your time
-be prepared to be rejected.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

CarriePie · Feb 11, 2024

Subhumanoidal said:

Absolutely. I agree with you! I agree with having some level of pursuit. Otherwise, how is the other person going to know if you are interested.

If I am not a guys type, honestly I'm not going to pursue him. It just doesn't make sense to me personally to work "hard enough" to pursue someone who isn't into me/my type. In other words I agree with you on not pushing too hard or forcing it...and also agree with you on paying attention. Be discerning.

Always be prepared for rejection in all areas of life.

Your thoughts on this subject (and other subjects) are wise!

Subhumanoidal · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

Thank you for your last comment. Appreciated. 🙂

Yes. Sometimes it's easy to tell that you won't fit into someone's mold.
As a teen I knew of, more than new personally, this girl that went to my church. She was prim and proper, rigid posture. The "good Christian girl" thing. Often a scowled face. She was never rude to people, but she gave off a very snooty vibe. I, on the other hand was her opposite. Being a teen I considered how she may have viewed me and the idea of dating me and I knew it was impossible, not that I was interested anyways. It was just an entertaining thought.
Unsurprisingly she ended up marrying a guy who became our youth pastor. I never did understand them being together. He was so chill and laid back and friendly. He even went with me and my buddy to a few Christian metal concerts, something his wife would Never do.
Anyways. Sidetracked a bit 😂😇
I'll stop here before I babble on anymore.

Gojira · Feb 11, 2024

seoulsearch said:

Hey Everyone,

I was thinking about some issues that have come up in the threads about what singles want in a potential spouse.

I was also thinking of my grandparents, who were married for 64 years (until her death,) and how much different things were then. They knew each other all their lives, as they had grown up together in a one-room school on a farm. They married not because they each met a long list of the other's standards, though I'm sure there were some, but basically, he was a young man, she was a young woman -- they knew each other and each other's families, and liked each other, and so they got married. (My Grandma did have one stipulation, however -- she wouldn't marry my Grandpa until SHE had a certain amount of money in the bank that SHE had earned herself, which was very unusual in those days.)

Fast forward to modern times, and singles today have lists of "requirements" ranging from height to salary to body weight, hair, and eye color that would give all the wish lists given to Santa combined a run for their money.

When does the concept of "having standards" cross over into "being shallow"?

Here's a good example: as most know, I was adopted from Korea and grew up in a small white town with white parents. As a Christian single myself, I have often known guys or have seen profiles in which it says they are NOT attracted to Asian girls AT ALL.

Is this a standard, or is it shallow?

Modern culture has taught me that my knee-jerk reaction is to automatically shout, "RACIST!!!" and go on a loud, raging tyrant about how I should be seen as "EQUAL," but in my heart, I have to talk to God about the fact that maybe some people weren't built to be attracted to Asians. I'm certainly not saying this is absolute, I'm just saying it's something I have to consider.

As I talked to people over time, I also had to consider things like the white guy who grew with two adopted Asian sisters, and he said he wasn't attracted to Asians because it was impossible for him to look at Asian women as anything else but a sister. I have also heard of people who aren't attracted to certain characteristics because they were abused by someone who fit them in the past.

And considering that the most discriminating of all seems to be Asian culture itself (Koreans are expected to marry traditional Koreans with "good" family histories -- adopted Koreans like myself are NOT "real" Koreans, and, in the most extreme cases, not even real people because we have no "roots" -- recorded family history, and therefore, would bring "bad blood" into another family.) There ARE exceptions of course, and this forum has actually blessed me with an amazing traditional Korean friend whom I am VERY thankful for, as his friendship and God's blessing helped close up many of my childhood/adolescent/young adult wounds.

In conclusion, from my own personal view, I've come to see preferences like this as a choice, and it is between God and that person, even if it does hurt very deeply. After all, I'm guilty of having my own "preferences," and having to ask God about the areas in which I myself cross over into being shallow.

What do you see as the differences?

For instance, if you hear:

* "I don't find Asians attractive, so don't bother contacting me if you're Asian."

Is this a standard, or is it shallow? If you're Asian or don't have Asian people you are close to, it probably doesn't seem like any big deal. But what if it changes to:

* "I am only attracted to blue-eyed blondes -- any other hair or eye color need not apply."

If this statement now applies to you, does it change your reaction of whether this statement is now a standard, or just being shallow?

And so it goes on.

Let's say YOU the one making these statements from your own point of view:

* "I'll only date someone who meets my criteria for body weight and fitness."

* "I'll only date someone who makes a certain amount and above."

* "I'll only date someone who comes from a certain kind of family."

* "I'll only date someone healthy."

Are these standards, or shallowness?

Now let's change the scenario to someone who is telling YOU:

* "Yeah, you go to the gym 5 times a week, but you don't look like a fitness model and I won't date anything less."

* "Yeah, you make $75,000 a year, but I'm really looking for someone who's making 6 figures, and preferably, the first number isn't just a 1."

* "Yeah, you have a nice Christian family but you don't come from a prestigious Christian family, and that's what I'm looking for."

* "Yeah, your cancer has been in remission for 5 years and you haven't had any problems since, but I want to date someone who doesn't have any signs of chronic disease or sickness."

+ Does this change the way you look at the first set of statements? Does it have any difference as to whether you now see them as being a standard or being shallow?

+ In other words, do the definitions change when we go from being the one who sets the bar, to then being the one who falls short of it?

+ Is a standard only a standard when we get to set it, and is someone who sets standards we don't fit now being shallow?

I find this interesting because it seems nowadays, whether one is a Christian or not, if someone rejects someone else for ANY reason and that person disagrees with why they are being rejected, then obviously, it's because the other person is racist, sexist, a feminist, a toxic male, an ageist (and the list goes on,) not a REAL Christian, or, worst of all, just plain SHALLOW. Now of course, we all know that some set of baseline standards are necessary, but has anyone else noticed this disturbing dynamic? Any form of rejection that someone doesn't like/disagrees with is now being relabeled as "shallowness," shifting the negativity from the person who was rejected to the person who did the rejecting. And I understand this is a very human thing to do. But where are the lines?

It might just me, but I think this is another big way in which Christians are falling prey to the modern cultural message that tells everyone, "You are a beautiful, sparkling snowflake JUST THE WAY YOU ARE, and you have a right to be considered an EQUAL candidate in EVERY and ANY situation. ANYONE who rejects you is SHALLOW and bigoted and it's THEIR loss because they are missing out on the splenderiffic unicorn that is YOU!"

I know rejection hurts all of us, but it makes me wonder about how much of it God wants us to accept and shake off, and how much of it He wants to use to make us honestly face what He is saying needs to be addressed within ourselves (including our own shallowness.)

* How about you?

* What have your experiences been with standards, rejection, and shallowness -- both as the person who was rejected, and as the one doing the rejecting?

* Have we crossed the lines between what reasonable expectations to just looking for any and every excuse to both set our own standards, reject anyone who doesn't meet them, and then simultaneously shame anyone who dares do the same to us?

Eek... hard question(s) to contemplate. I think maybe what makes our standards shallow or not depends on the reasons for them.

I think wanting to be with someone you are physically attracted to is normal, since you'll be sharing your bed with them. However, I also agree that if that is your standard, you should also apply it to yourself. I don't like being rejected because I'm not handsome enough for them, but at the same time I have trouble criticizing them for it since I also have my preferred tastes.

The money issue is something else. Things like this... or height, e.g., don't mean much to me. However, women do often judge men over these traits, so at this I do take offense. I went out with two Christian women who did not want to date me after they got a load of my 5'6" height. One of these two also wanted their man to make at least $100K. She was not capable of offering her man what she herself was seeking however. Rest assured these ladies' heights or incomes meant little to me.

These are just some random thoughts. I don't know if I have full, complete answers to these questions. But, there is something to the "deal with the log in your own eye" thought you're conveying. This is why I have been contemplating my own outward presentation, and if I ever should marry again, to work on maintaining that during the marriage.

Gojira · Feb 11, 2024

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

And, that really ought to be something we consider as well. If we're in a Godly situation, and both parties are happy, everyone else who wants to judge can go stick it.

CarriePie · Feb 11, 2024

Subhumanoidal said:

It's not babbling. I find these kinds of stories to be interesting. We learn by hearing of and seeing other people's experiences.

My parents have been a great example to me of why I never want to be with someone who isn't into me/my type. My mother met my dad and was into him. He was not interesting in her. She pursued him until he finally agreed to marry her, which I'm thankful for because they had me. However, their marriage was terrible. In the beginning, she worked "hard enough" to apparently get him to overlook that he wasn't into her long enough to marry her. Their marriage was miserable. Eventually, they divorced and she found someone who was interested in her and they married and they remained married until she passed away.
Early on, I got a look at what it would be like to be married to someone who doesn't prefer me. This was a lesson to me to never work hard at getting someone to like you who isn't going to appreciate you and you them.

As you wisely said, don't push hard or force it!

Moses_Young · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

I definitely agree. My point was more it sometimes can be done if required. Just because one doesn't fit someone's preconceived notion of what someone wants, doesn't mean someone can't fall in love with that one.

I'm not sure if I'm taking these verses out of context, but I think they suggest your point.

Song of Solomon 3:5 I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.
Song of Solomon 8:4 I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, until he please.

Lynx · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

Yeah. Besides, if your efforts DO get him... You'll either have to keep up the act for the rest of your lives together or lose him!

Just not worth the effort.

Moses_Young · Feb 11, 2024

Lynx said:

I think if someone truly falls in love, there is no "act" to keep up. Else it wasn't love in the first place. But yeah, it's not a path I'd recommend. More for those who found their "one true love", and would rather die alone than marry another.

Subhumanoidal · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

I knew a similar couple. Ironically they met in church, and he was in the worship band. They got together, ended up having sex. She got pregnant. She wasn't interested in him enough to want to marry him, but he was crazy about her. He kept asking and asking to marry her, she kept refusing. She had actually planned on moving out of state, but she got some advice saying they should marry and she'll learn to love him. Finally she caved in and they got married.
She never learned to love him, and actually began to regret marrying him. He recognized this and began to grow bitter towards her. He eventually became verbally abusive, mostly to her, but also to their kids as well. Eventually she kicked him out, he became an alcoholic who continued to mistreat her every chance he got. Even 10+ years later.

But this makes me think of my dads first marriage. He married a woman, things obviously were going well with them. But he said they got in the car, after the wedding, literally right after, still in their wedding clothes. As he drove off she did a 180 and became a horrible person. And stayed that way the entire time of their marriage, till he divorced her. So even with compatible people you have to be careful.

Lynx · Feb 11, 2024

CarriePie said:

It's not babbling. I find these kinds of stories to be interesting. We learn by hearing of and seeing other people's experiences.

My parents have been a great example to me of why I never want to be with someone who isn't into me/my type. My mother met my dad and was into him. He was not interesting in her. She pursued him until he finally agreed to marry her, which I'm thankful for because they had me. However, their marriage was terrible. In the beginning, she worked "hard enough" to apparently get him to overlook that he wasn't into her long enough to marry her. Their marriage was miserable. Eventually, they divorced and she found someone who was interested in her and they married and they remained married until she passed away.
Early on, I got a look at what it would be like to be married to someone who doesn't prefer me. This was a lesson to me to never work hard at getting someone to like you who isn't going to appreciate you and you them.

As you wisely said, don't push hard or force it!

"Love is like a fart. If you have to push it, it's probably a turd."

Cameron143 · Feb 11, 2024

Lynx said:

I'm taking it that the job writing greetings cards didn't work out at Hallmark.

Lynx · Feb 11, 2024

Cameron143 said:

Don't care. It's still good advice. If they can't print it, their loss.

Cameron143 · Feb 11, 2024

Lynx said:

These days it probably would get printed.

What is the Difference Between "Standards" and "Shallowness"?

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