Why free will?

[FollowerofShiloh]

When a person is born again. while he was yet dead spiritually (unable to understand things of the Spirit)God put the Holy Spirit within him, giving him the imputed righteousness of Christ. The only righteousness that the natural man had before he was quickened to a spiritual life was as filthy rags.

When a person is born again, they still carry the baggage of their fleshly nature, and when they turn away from God and begin to worship the idols of this world, as those in Romans one did, their actions become as filthy rags until they repent.

Most of God's well intended children cannot understand the grace of God, until they understand how unworthy, and nasty they are when they are walking in their flesh, instead of walking in the commandments of God.

The sacrifice of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart (Psalms 51:17)..

No, if someone is truly born again they are no longer in bondage to their old self and begin to be molded into a new person by God. You truly just want a reason to keep on sinning. Stop using the Bible so you can go do what you want to do. Just go do it and own up to it.

 

[rogerg]

Just means people who become educated think they're too smart to be duped into believing in God, which is a trick of Satan. But that does not take away the fact that Romans 1 says God has still "revealed Himself" to them. They just don't believe in what they call fairy tales.

And you find the word "educated" in there, where? Sounds to me like you're adding to the verse's intent, which is a
no-no.

The revelation of things spiritual and being able to comprehend and take to heart that which is revealed, are two different things. God must first change the heart for that to occur. Natural unsaved man is unable to comprehend the spiritual. which is probably the reason why you are having so much difficulty grasping that which I've been trying to tell you.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And you find the word "educated" in there, where? Sounds to me like you're adding to the verse's intent, which is a
no-no.

The revelation of things spiritual and being able to comprehend and take to heart that which is revealed, are two different things. God must first change the heart for that to occur. Natural unsaved man is unable to comprehend the spiritual. which is probably the reason why you are having so much difficulty grasping that which I've been trying to tell you.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The original Greek is written this way "4 Those whose intellects." People become intelligent by learning. You become intelligent in the Bible by reading + Spirit of God. People learn Mathematics by reading Math problems and how to solve them. Same with History, English, all things. And when someone has learned enough to become as Verse 4 claims, intellect, they think they're smarter than they actually are.

More atheist are school teachers and college professors than any other group. They think they're smarter than everyone else. These people think they're so smart they reject God even when God makes Himself known to them. We have God's Creation, but the intellect created "Evolution" to reject God.

 

[rogerg]

The original Greek is written this way "4 Those whose intellects." People become intelligent by learning. You become intelligent in the Bible by reading + Spirit of God. People learn Mathematics by reading Math problems and how to solve them. Same with History, English, all things. And when someone has learned enough to become as Verse 4 claims, intellect, they think they're smarter than they actually are.

More atheist are school teachers and college professors than any other group. They think they're smarter than everyone else. These people think they're so smart they reject God even when God makes Himself known to them. We have God's Creation, but the intellect created "Evolution" to reject God.

The verse says that it is the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them who believe not. Not because of learning.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The verse says that it is the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them who believe not. Not because of learning.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the verse emphasizes it's done in their intellect. And the examples I gave to you shows how this is done. Think about this one thing for a moment. Why are the majority of grade school, middle school, high school, college teachers are "Atheists?" Because education and how smart a person thinks they are is how Satan blinds them to being "child like" in faith to believe in Jesus.

Jesus even said we must come to God with the belief like children. Children are not educational, they just believe. Jesus also said the "wise" will be confused by this. You just want to be so right about this you're willing to throw away what Jesus said. But the words of Jesus answer this issue better than Paul or anyone else.

 

[rogerg]

And the verse emphasizes it's done in their intellect. And the examples I gave to you shows how this is done. Think about this one thing for a moment. Why are the majority of grade school, middle school, high school, college teachers are "Atheists?" Because education and how smart a person thinks they are is how Satan blinds them to being "child like" in faith to believe in Jesus.

Jesus even said we must come to God with the belief like children. Children are not educational, they just believe. Jesus also said the "wise" will be confused by this. You just want to be so right about this you're willing to throw away what Jesus said. But the words of Jesus answer this issue better than Paul or anyone else.

And my translation says mind, not intellect. In any event, the point is they are blinded by satan.
To truly believe is a gift given to those whom He has chosen for salvation.
And these are the words of Jesus which words you claim:

[Jhn 6:37-39, 44-45 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And my translation says mind, not intellect. In any event, the point is they are blinded by satan.
To truly believe is a gift given to those whom He has chosen for salvation.
And these are the words of Jesus which words you claim:

[Jhn 6:37-39, 44-45 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Look at verse 45. This was spoken 2,000 years ago. Today, you cannot turn on a television without seeing some kind of Church and preaching Jesus. But yet, there's only, according to graphs and charts, 1/4 of the earth's human population that claim to be Christian. The rest are atheist and agnostic. We also have had many debates since the 1980's between preachers and science over evolution. literally in the past 40 years over 12 billion people have heard the Gospel debated or preached but only 2 billion believe. 10 billion have heard but do not believe. That proves "you" don't understand the verses you use for your argument because these people know that Jesus exists because they've been told and heard it. But they still do not believe. And you know why, "free will" is why.

 

[rogerg]

Look at verse 45. This was spoken 2,000 years ago. Today, you cannot turn on a television without seeing some kind of Church and preaching Jesus. But yet, there's only, according to graphs and charts, 1/4 of the earth's human population that claim to be Christian. The rest are atheist and agnostic. We also have had many debates since the 1980's between preachers and science over evolution. literally in the past 40 years over 12 billion people have heard the Gospel debated or preached but only 2 billion believe. 10 billion have heard but do not believe. That proves "you" don't understand the verses you use for your argument because these people know that Jesus exists because they've been told and heard it. But they still do not believe. And you know why, "free will" is why.

No, it is not free will, but alone God's choice.
If someone truly believes in Christ as Saviour, it is only because they were chosen by God to truly believe, as the verses that I posted clearly state. Obviously, you either didn't read them, didn't get them, or didn't believe them. Unfortunately for you, you are the one who doesn't understand. If God is gracious unto you and He imparts that understanding (and I hope He does), let me know and we can take it back up again - if He doesn't, you will never be able to gain it. Until then, it would make no sense for us to continue with this discussion.
Remember, at the center of it all, Christ alone is the Saviour, and man is not.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, if someone is truly born again they are no longer in bondage to their old self and begin to be molded into a new person by God. You truly just want a reason to keep on sinning. Stop using the Bible so you can go do what you want to do. Just go do it and own up to it.

Very comical, surly you don/t really think that of me.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No, it is not free will, but alone God's choice.
If someone truly believes in Christ as Saviour, it is only because they were chosen by God to truly believe, as the verses that I posted clearly state. Obviously, you either didn't read them, didn't get them, or didn't believe them. Unfortunately for you, you are the one who doesn't understand. If God is gracious unto you and He imparts that understanding (and I hope He does), let me know and we can take it back up again - if He doesn't, you will never be able to gain it. Until then, it would make no sense for us to continue with this discussion.
Remember, at the center of it all, Christ alone is the Saviour, and man is not.

It is free will because God will not make someone who rejects Him be with Him. The entire Bible is about "Love." God's Love and people "loving God." Jesus asked Peter, do you "LOVE me?" If Peter said, no, God would not tell him to feed His sheep. Peter showed free will in denying Him and then later in loving Him. You are all kinds of confused.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Very comical, surly you don/t really think that of me.

I only assess you by the answers you give.

 

[rogerg]

It is free will because God will not make someone who rejects Him be with Him. The entire Bible is about "Love." God's Love and people "loving God." Jesus asked Peter, do you "LOVE me?" If Peter said, no, God would not tell him to feed His sheep. Peter showed free will in denying Him and then later in loving Him. You are all kinds of confused.

See if you can comprehend the following verses. You shouldn't have any problem with them as they are extremely simple and straightforward. Until you can, no need to reply.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

See if you can comprehend the following verses. You shouldn't have any problem with them as they are extremely simple and straightforward. Until you can, no need to reply.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The majority of "atheist/agnostics" today "are not" Jewish like John 12 speaks about. So, they're not blinded as your verse reference indicates, which is specific to the "Jews" only. So like I said, you don't understand. The gentile atheist/agnostics are rejecting God due to "free will."

STOP applying verses specific to the "Jews" for the gentiles. That will help you to finally get this right.

 

[rogerg]

The majority of "atheist/agnostics" today "are not" Jewish like John 12 speaks about. So, they're not blinded as your verse reference indicates, which is specific to the "Jews" only. So like I said, you don't understand. The gentile atheist/agnostics are rejecting God due to "free will."

STOP applying verses specific to the "Jews" for the gentiles. That will help you to finally get this right.

Wrong again! It applies to all the unsaved - there is only one salvation. Do you see the "blinded the minds of them which believe not" in 2 Co 4:4? Do you see how that verse refers to all of the spiritually blind - all of the unsaved and not just the Jews - as John 12:37, 39, 40 also applies to all of the unsaved? You lack a basic understanding of how God wrote the Bible and of how it must be interpreted - probably because the Holy Spirit is not moving within you to compare the spiritual with the spiritual.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You should have been able and aware enough to compare and correlate 2 Cor 4:4 with John 12:37, 39,40 and realize they're speaking of the same thing.

You are of those described in the following verses - that no matter how much/often someone tries to explain/re-explain to you, you just seem unable to get it.

[2Ti 3:7 KJV] 7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Wrong again! It applies to all the unsaved - there is only one salvation. Do you see the "blinded the minds of them which believe not" in 2 Co 4:4? Do you see how that verse refers to all of the spiritually blind - all of the unsaved and not just the Jews - as John 12:37, 39, 40 also applies to all of the unsaved? You lack a basic understanding of how God wrote the Bible and of how it must be interpreted - probably because the Holy Spirit is not moving within you to compare the spiritual with the spiritual.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You should have been able and aware enough to compare and correlate 2 Cor 4:4 with John 12:37, 39,40 and realize they're speaking of the same thing.

You are of those described in the following verses - that no matter how much/often someone tries to explain/re-explain to you, you just seem unable to get it.

[2Ti 3:7 KJV] 7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

John specifically applies to the Jews. And the Jews do believe in same God that we do, they just think the Messiah came yet.

We've already discussed 2nd Corinthians.

1st Corinthians does not say that the natural man cannot become a man full of the Spirit either. It just shows before God is their God they don't think like God. In fact, it doesn't say the natural cannot be saved at all.

2nd Timothy says same thing that I had about 2nd Corinthians. They are always learning, education, and their education won't allow them to see God when He shows Himself to them. Ha, too funny, you actually provided a verse that says what I have been saying in this quote of my post.

The original Greek is written this way "4 Those whose intellects." People become intelligent by learning. You become intelligent in the Bible by reading + Spirit of God. People learn Mathematics by reading Math problems and how to solve them. Same with History, English, all things. And when someone has learned enough to become as Verse 4 claims, intellect, they think they're smarter than they actually are.

More atheist are school teachers and college professors than any other group. They think they're smarter than everyone else. These people think they're so smart they reject God even when God makes Himself known to them. We have God's Creation, but the intellect created "Evolution" to reject God.

 

[rogerg]

John specifically applies to the Jews. And the Jews do believe in same God that we do, they just think the Messiah came yet.

We've already discussed 2nd Corinthians.

1st Corinthians does not say that the natural man cannot become a man full of the Spirit either. It just shows before God is their God they don't think like God. In fact, it doesn't say the natural cannot be saved at all.

2nd Timothy says same thing that I had about 2nd Corinthians. They are always learning, education, and their education won't allow them to see God when He shows Himself to them. Ha, too funny, you actually provided a verse that says what I have been saying in this quote of my post.

Look, I'm done. You're going on ignore.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Look, I'm done. You're going on ignore.

It's going to be difficult for you to prove something when you continue to provide verses that proves you wrong. Good luck.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
It doesn't make sense that God would repent of making man, if before He made them He knew the outcome of every choice of the men He would make. I don't think it is necessary to assume that God exhaustively knows the future, in order to also believe the Bible and the Gospel.

Your god is too small.

Your beliefs about God cognitively dissonant.
cognitive dissonance
noun

: psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, if someone is truly born again they are no longer in bondage to their old self and begin to be molded into a new person by God. You truly just want a reason to keep on sinning. Stop using the Bible so you can go do what you want to do. Just go do it and own up to it.

If someone is truly born again they are no longer in danger of eternal hell, however, they still do, at times, yield their bodies to the temptations of this world by committing sins. When they commit sin, they separate themselves from their fellowship with God, until they repent. If we say that we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us.

You come across as being very prideful in believing that you hardly ever commit a sin.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If someone is truly born again they are no longer in danger of eternal hell, however, they still do, at times, yield their bodies to the temptations of this world by committing sins. When they commit sin, they separate themselves from their fellowship with God, until they repent. If we say that we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us.

You come across as being very prideful in believing that you hardly ever commit a sin.

a saves person should repent straight away and not make the same mistake.

Because a saved person should be convicted by the holy spirit, even before they sin and saved person should be convicted not to sin when temptation strikes.