Spiritual Baptism

Bob-Carabbio · Feb 6, 2024

It's "Pentecostal vernacular" for the Acts 2:4 experience where the Holy Spirit Comes ON a person, who's already saved, and has been Indwelled by the Holy Spirit according to John 20:22. Jesus' term for Acts 2:4 was "Endued (clothed) with Power from on high". (luke 24:49)

Never heard of that theological foolishness. Water Baptism is what a person does AFTER they've been Born Again, and have become a Christian. it's a Biblical ordinance. "Spiritual baptism" isn't related to "Conversion" - it's purpose is "Power for Ministry".

Baptism in water is what you do AFTER "conversion" Baptism isn't involved in Conversion (Being "Born again" / "Saved"). It's an ordinance that you obey.

I wouldn't lift a finger to "Prove" Spiritual baptism to you. You apparentlyy think that the two cites were "Special cases" (common among cessationists) and appear to reject the Biblical concept of "Normal Christians" being used in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 14 is a better "Teaching chapter" about "tongues in the open service".

In MY CASE, back in '72 I was prayed for to "receive it" and nothing happened - until several weeks later, when suddenly "tongues" showed up in my mind, and I spoke them. 40+ years later I still do. The REAL PRACTICAL EFFECT of that, however, was that the Holy Spirit immediately moved me into an intense decade of teaching Bible in various Home groups and churches to people from liberal, and Catholic Church systems. It still works nicely in 2024.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 7, 2024

Cameron143 said:

If hearing that produces faith is physical hearing, why didn't everyone believe?

brother why do you think he gave the commission to preach the gospel ? Because it has to be actually heard before we can know it lol

If I had ten million dollars for you in a bank but I never bortheres telling you about it , you would never know you had ten million dollars in the bank . Look at the commission

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( because if they don’t hear it they can’t believe it )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why is this true ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why does the gospel need to be preached throughout the world of no one needs to actually hear it ?????

God has salvstion in the bank for us and he’s sent out a loud resounding clanging shout saying “ hear me and believe and you’ll have eternal life go tell everyone else about this message whoever believes ect…..

ifnhesusbhadnt sent the gospel out with his witnesses tomoresch it nonone here wouod onoe anything about Jesus his death and resurrection or anything we find in the Bible

The one thing God requires is for us to hear what he said in the gospel specifically it’s the only doctrine he ever sent to all people and said “ this will save believers “

If no one actually preached the gospel as Jesus commanded them to do

no one else could believe the gospel because No one would ever hear the gospel or know the name Jesus

i mean brother Gino to a group of people and don’t say anything and then see how many people believe the gospel that you heard about a long time ago and when you heard about it you believed it was true …..who knows exactly why you believed it but you did believe what you actually heard or read about jesus otherwise you’d never have had the opportunity to believe the message he sent tonus for salvstion

lets try the Nivs more modern language

“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent?

As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

But not all those accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NIV‬

Brother we have to actually hear the gospel he sent into the world or we can’t believe the gospel he sent into the world. How can someone call on Jesus name if they never heard about him and salvstion and his sacrifice ect ? No one could

God didn’t send his disciples out to preach the gospel because it wasn’t necassary for anyone to hear it but because that’s the message that saves souls and to believe it we have to hear it

watch what stepehen was preaching here if he hadn’t how could the man have ever believed it and been baptized ? He didn’t even know who the scriptures were about u til Jesus witness came along preaching message about Christ in the gospel

Imagine this brother look how important the man hesring jesus wotness is to the events that follow

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ,( they had to hear it first )they were baptized, both men and women.

…..Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah ,( chapter 53) and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And like a lamb dumb before his shearer, So opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: And who shall declare his generation? For his life is taken from the earth.

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12, 29-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the man hadn’t heard the message of Christ in the gospel fulfilling that prophecy he would never have known and believes and been baptized

hearing the gospel is as simple as it sounds some will believe the gospel when they hear it like you did , others will think it’s a silly superstition or some funny wives tale ect

In the end even the dead will hear the gospel be preached to them and they did

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everyone will hear the message eventually not everyone will believe the message however

brother herring the message in the gospel is paramount and no one could ever believe without hearing it Jesus and his disciples died carrying the message and we still hear it clearly today in Matthew mark Luke and John that message is readily available in books and more importantly the hearts of those who hears and believed Gods everlasting word

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because without herring the gospel no one can believe the gospel

I think honestly that’s the biggest issue we create our own form of Jesus and salvstion because we don’t hear his version

Cameron143 · Feb 7, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

If hearing that produces faith is physical hearing, why didn't everyone believe?

brother why do you think he gave the commission to preach the gospel ? Because it has to be actually heard before we can know it lol

If I had ten million dollars for you in a bank but I never bortheres telling you about it , you would never know you had ten million dollars in the bank . Look at the commission

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( because if they don’t hear it they can’t believe it )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why is this true ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why does the gospel need to be preached throughout the world of no one needs to actually hear it ?????

God has salvstion in the bank for us and he’s sent out a loud resounding clanging shout saying “ hear me and believe and you’ll have eternal life go tell everyone else about this message whoever believes ect…..

ifnhesusbhadnt sent the gospel out with his witnesses tomoresch it nonone here wouod onoe anything about Jesus his death and resurrection or anything we find in the Bible

The one thing God requires is for us to hear what he said in the gospel specifically it’s the only doctrine he ever sent to all people and said “ this will save believers “

If no one actually preached the gospel as Jesus commanded them to do

no one else could believe the gospel because No one would ever hear the gospel or know the name Jesus

i mean brother Gino to a group of people and don’t say anything and then see how many people believe the gospel that you heard about a long time ago and when you heard about it you believed it was true …..who knows exactly why you believed it but you did believe what you actually heard or read about jesus otherwise you’d never have had the opportunity to believe the message he sent tonus for salvstion

lets try the Nivs more modern language

“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent?

As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

But not all those accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NIV‬

Brother we have to actually hear the gospel he sent into the world or we can’t believe the gospel he sent into the world. How can someone call on Jesus name if they never heard about him and salvstion and his sacrifice ect ? No one could

God didn’t send his disciples out to preach the gospel because it wasn’t necassary for anyone to hear it but because that’s the message that saves souls and to believe it we have to hear it

watch what stepehen was preaching here if he hadn’t how could the man have ever believed it and been baptized ? He didn’t even know who the scriptures were about u til Jesus witness came along preaching message about Christ in the gospel

Imagine this brother look how important the man hesring jesus wotness is to the events that follow

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ,( they had to hear it first )they were baptized, both men and women.

…..Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah ,( chapter 53) and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And like a lamb dumb before his shearer, So opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: And who shall declare his generation? For his life is taken from the earth.

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12, 29-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the man hadn’t heard the message of Christ in the gospel fulfilling that prophecy he would never have known and believes and been baptized

hearing the gospel is as simple as it sounds some will believe the gospel when they hear it like you did , others will think it’s a silly superstition or some funny wives tale ect

In the end even the dead will hear the gospel be preached to them and they did

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everyone will hear the message eventually not everyone will believe the message however

brother herring the message in the gospel is paramount and no one could ever believe without hearing it Jesus and his disciples died carrying the message and we still hear it clearly today in Matthew mark Luke and John that message is readily available in books and more importantly the hearts of those who hears and believed Gods everlasting word

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because without herring the gospel no one can believe the gospel

I think honestly that’s the biggest issue we create our own form of Jesus and salvstion because we don’t hear his version

I realize you believe I am complicating things unnecessarily. So, if we can, let's go one point at a time.
I'm suggesting to you that biblical hearing is more than just hearing with our physical sense of hearing. It involves this, but is not limited to this. In other words, physical hearing plus something else.
The something else is revelation in the form of understanding. And what we now understand is the basis of the belief or faith we come to. We actually understand that we are truly sinners, that our sins are worthy of eternal separation from God, and that Jesus has made a way for us to have peace with God.
I'm also suggesting that apart from God imparting this understanding to us, we will not come to it on our own. This is why I went to Acts 2:37. What I laid out did transpire for 3,000 people the day of Pentecost. It did not occur for multiple times more who heard the exact same message. I referred to the verses in Matthew 13 as the reason why...spiritual hearing or understanding was not given to them. Those who did not respond were not given understanding; neither were they circumcised or pricked in their hearts.
Perhaps you can respond just to this.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 7, 2024

Cameron143 said:

There was a prior reason why spiritual hearing was not given to them (the enemies of Christ). They had ALREADY rejected Christ and His teachings. At the same time, God gives people many chances to repent and be converted. But those who deliberately shut their eyes to the truth are judicially blinded.

Cameron143 · Feb 7, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Everyone rejects Christ until they don't. This is the way we arrive. Even as you say, God gives people many opportunities to repent. This means they wilfully rejected Christ before, and yet they still have opportunity to repent. But they won't until hearing is given.

Obedience · Feb 7, 2024

Gen
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Don't you think it's looks like the Red Sea in Exodus?

If you understand from this picture, water and the Holy Spirit are actually the same thing.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 8, 2024

Cameron143 said:

“I'm suggesting to you that biblical hearing is more than just hearing with our physical sense of hearing. It involves this, but is not limited to this. In other words, physical hearing plus something else. “

yeah brother my point is that if we don’t hear it the rest wouldn’t matter.

teo men here the same gospel one hears it and it’s true to him there’s nothing that proves it physically he just hears a message and when he did he believes it ( it’s of God the reason he believes isn’t of himself he believes the message because he is a believer God sought him out with the message and it calls to him he just believes it

The other guy hesrd the same message but it’s the opposite to him he doesn’t know why but he thinks it’s silly he doesn’t believe it so he moves on to something he does believe in ….

Do you all see how what I’m saying isn’t really even opposed to what your saying ?

Hearing the gospel is the conduit for salvation and also damnation of all people it’s the sword th ats going to divide light and dark

Without actually hearing the message one can’t find faith that’s all I’m saying if we don’t hear something actually hear it we can’t believe or reject it. We can also hear things that aren’t true d believe then or not believe them …..

the gospel is like a faith finder until we hear it faith is never going to act or be unlocked it has to come from the message he sent to mankind

Ehat your saying brother makes sense I don’t really disagree at all was making a much simpler point

actually hearing something is required for “ hearing of faith “ I’m not saying that non believers here the gospel now they have faith , im saying actually hearing the gospel message is what determines who believes or doesn’t believe it

We already are a believer or a non believer now we have to hear the gospel to find out which we are

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 8, 2024

My biggest concern is people fully leaning on the idea the day of Pentecost has been fulfilled, I feal the day of Pentecost is for every new believer also.

I'm also believing water baptism came before the day of Pentecost, and water baptism had to be changed in line with the day of Pentecost, because after the day of Pentecost, if my memory serves me correctly,.some people where not performing water baptism in line with the day of Pentecost, or people had to be re baptised because some sort of a mistake was made.

I probably need this explaining to me again, as my thoughts are unsure at the moment

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Evmur said:

I respectfully suggest you are missing the whole point. Was Peter calling any of the previous converts common? No, not even the Samaritans but he, and the Jews, still viewed the Gentiles as unclean.
This is what Peter finally came to realize from the vision and being sent to Gentiles.
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
It was unlawful to associate with Gentiles and now Peter understands he should call no man unclean.

Then he says v34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
They had viewed the Gentiles as dogs for over a thousand years, but this conversion, and vision, are proof from God they should not any longer.

This one conversion is also discussed in 2 other chapters, 11&15, because of it's importance.

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

studentoftheword said:

You tell me I'm wrong but you are not helping me to see how I'm wrong.

Your post was about the indwelling of the HS. I agree with the indwelling of the HS and understand it fairly well, not totally but I feel fairly well. In dwelling of the HS is not baptism by/of the HS. For example, when we see Jesus preached as the Messiah for the first time, they were told to be baptized in the name of Jesus and they would receive the HS. Is that one baptism or two?

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Jimbone said:

I do my very best to add/take away nothing. Do you believe God gave us the correct words to help us understand the truth or do we need to change the words He gave us to understand the truth?
I suggest lets stick to the words God gave us first and foremost to understand before we do any changing.

What I said was baptism WITH the HS only happened twice and baptism BY/OF the HS never happened according to the bible. Please do a search for each and see what you come up with. You will find for baptized with, the verses that say that are looking forward and backwards at the times when it actually happened, which is only twice. Also, notice the characteristics of each. For baptize/d/baptism OF/By you won't find anything. After your search, if you still see baptism OF/BY in scripture, please tell me.

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Bob-Carabbio said:

It's "Pentecostal vernacular" for the Acts 2:4 experience where the Holy Spirit Comes ON a person, who's already saved, and has been Indwelled by the Holy Spirit according to John 20:22. Jesus' term for Acts 2:4 was "Endued (clothed) with Power from on high". (luke 24:49)

Never heard of that theological foolishness. Water Baptism is what a person does AFTER they've been Born Again, and have become a Christian. it's a Biblical ordinance. "Spiritual baptism" isn't related to "Conversion" - it's purpose is "Power for Ministry".

Baptism in water is what you do AFTER "conversion" Baptism isn't involved in Conversion (Being "Born again" / "Saved"). It's an ordinance that you obey.

I wouldn't lift a finger to "Prove" Spiritual baptism to you. You apparentlyy think that the two cites were "Special cases" (common among cessationists) and appear to reject the Biblical concept of "Normal Christians" being used in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 14 is a better "Teaching chapter" about "tongues in the open service".

In MY CASE, back in '72 I was prayed for to "receive it" and nothing happened - until several weeks later, when suddenly "tongues" showed up in my mind, and I spoke them. 40+ years later I still do. The REAL PRACTICAL EFFECT of that, however, was that the Holy Spirit immediately moved me into an intense decade of teaching Bible in various Home groups and churches to people from liberal, and Catholic Church systems. It still works nicely in 2024.

Do you believe that the one baptism in Eph. 4 is water or spirit?

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

You are correct. Baptism for cleansing was performed in the OT. Then God instituted baptism for repentance for the remission of sins with John the Baptist. After Jesus's sacrifice, He changes it to baptism "in the name of Jesus"

I think you are referring to Acts 19. At the end of Acts 18 Apollos is in Ephesus and is preaching Jesus accurately with one exception, he only knows John's baptism. He leaves then in chapter 19 Paul comes into Ephesus and meets these men. He asks them did they receive the HS when they believed, and they said they didn't even know of the HS. Paul then asks them into what were they baptized. He tells them about John's baptism then baptizes them in the name of Jesus. After he has done that he then lays hands on them and then the HS comes on them.

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Magenta said:

Do you believe those in Christ are priests and Christ our high priest?

Magenta · Feb 10, 2024

turbosixx said:

Absolutely .

.

Bob-Carabbio · Feb 10, 2024

turbosixx said:

PERSONAL OPINION: it's the Spiritual baptism since WATER baptism is nothing more than just another "Religious ceremony", performed AFTER a person has been born again, and become a Christian.

OF course that's one of the verses that is (due to lack of detail) highly controversial theologically, and consequently can be used as a "Proof text" for any "theologies" requiring one.

It's like Roman 8:26 is used as a "Proof text" by Pentecostals, to support tongues - even though it clearly states "Cannot be uttered", or Isa 33:19 which refers to the Assyrian language, not "tongues".

Denominational theologies will grab at ANY STRAW they can find, to support their beliefs - like John 3:5 which has nothing to do with "Baptism" at all.

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 10, 2024

turbosixx said:

Paul must of been speaking to people who didn't know.

Because clearly other people in acts 10 knew

This was the same baptism Paul was speaking about

Acts 10:47-48
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48
Acts 10:47-48
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.

They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48

So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.[

Magenta · Feb 10, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

Surely even you can see they already had the Holy Spirit?

turbosixx · Feb 10, 2024

Bob-Carabbio said:

I suggest it's only controversial because one baptism doesn't fit their understanding. I don't see how it can be misunderstood other than by those who doesn't want to believe there is only one baptism. Everything in that list is clearly one, that is the point of the list. Why wouldn't there be one baptism as well?
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Paul wouldn't have included it in the list if there wasn't one.

Those who use that verse to support spiritual baptism believe in two baptisms. One of them has to go since there is only one.

I believe in one baptism and it's water. I believe we receive the HS but it is not a baptism of the HS.
One baptism and a receiving of the HS.
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
My .02

Magenta · Feb 10, 2024

turbosixx said:

There were those too who were water baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:47-48
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized
with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

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