Why free will?

[rogerg]

Still doesn't change what I said!! God does not choose certain people gain heaven and certain people go to hell. That' s what unbelievers say all the time, "how could a loving God send anyone to hell?" The answer is, He doesn't!! You make that choice. You either choose to serve Him or you don't. God doesn't send anyone to hell, you go there of your own choice and freewill.

No choice. The choice was made by Adam. The spiritually dead, which death was caused by Adam and Eve, cannot choose spiritually. Only those God first makes alive - gives spiritual life to through salvation - will have spiritual understanding,

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[rogerg]

This is foolishness to the carnal mind.....


Heb 2:9~~But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Every man:
[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Kroogz]

[Rom 9:22 KJV] 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

2 Tim 2:21~~Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[rogerg]

[Rom 9:22 KJV] 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Did you miss the "fitted to destruction" part of the much longsuffering? In other words, God suffers with those who have been
fitted to destruction, to make known "the riches of his glory on the vessels of his mercy which he had afore prepared to glory".

[2Ti 2:20 KJV] 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

He will have mercy on ME, He will have compassion on ME......You mere humans cannot even understand this spiritual truth......Why am I even here telling you this, you have no way of hearing or seeing my superior position?

Do I kneel or bow from the waist? No emoji for those.

 

[PaulThomson]

Still doesn't change what I said!! God does not choose certain people gain heaven and certain people go to hell. That' s what unbelievers say all the time, "how could a loving God send anyone to hell?" The answer is, He doesn't!! You make that choice. You either choose to serve Him or you don't. God doesn't send anyone to hell, you go there of your own choice and freewill.

Acts 2 "I will rebuild the tabernacle of David..." David brought the Ark of the covenant, in which were the manna, Aarons rod that budded, and the tablets of the law, to Jerusalem and placed it in a tent there, but left the rest of the tabernacle at Shiloh. This meant that everybody, whether sinner or saint, Jew or gentile, had an equal degree of access to the mercy seat as the Jewish priests. The Holy Spirit thus symbolising that when Jesus, God's high priest and the Bread of life and the Law-keeper, came tabernacled in human flesh, all had equal access to a relationship with God in the flesh: Syro-Pheonicians, Samaritans, Romans, Greeks and Jews. You are correct.

 

[rogerg]

Has nothing to do with salvation. If I have two children and one does wrong and I forgive them, but when the second child does the same I punish them, is that a good parent, a fair parent? No, that would be abusive. There is nothing worse than people who take a handful of Scripture out of context and make a doctrine out of it. What you're saying is against the character of God.

In reviewing my posts, I may have missed replying to the above so I'll do so now. I'll just let the Bible speak for itself but please observe the "not yet born, neither having done good or evil" and "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (in relation to it). And it does pertain specifically to salvation.

[Rom 9:11-13 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

God is able to awaken any human being, but God is unable to make that human being follow Him without them wanting to do so. There's free will in every decision we humans make. We sin by free will and we accept whether we want to follow God or not. The only thing God can do in the matter is hurt us trying to make us follow Him and that normally cause more rebellion from a human.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

No choice. The choice was made by Adam. The spiritually dead, which death was caused by Adam and Eve, cannot choose spiritually. Only those God first makes alive - gives spiritual life to through salvation - will have spiritual understanding,

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Then if we can't choose we aren't culpable for our sin. Then everyone goes to heaven and sin doesn't matter, no one is held accountable. The problem is this...

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.” – Revelation 20:11-13

So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.” – Romans 14:12

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” – 2 Corinthians 5:10

Conclusion, men have Free Will in a libertarian sense.


“No temptation has overtaken you, except what is common to man. And God is faithful. He will not allow you to be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation, will provide a way of escape also so that you will be able to endure it.”

The Bible says we have free will.

 

[rogerg]

Then if we can't choose we aren't culpable for our sin. Then everyone goes to heaven and sin doesn't matter, no one is held accountable. The problem is this...

It is not a question of culpability, but rather by Adam, all who come into this world (except Christ) do so being under the law of sin and death. Did you not see the "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" in my prior post, even though they were not yet born? It was said by God because He had already justified Jacob by Christ and Esau not, even while they were both yet still in the womb, so neither's culpability was in question to establish innocence nor guilt.
Those saved, are taken out from under the law of sin and death (from Adam's curse) and are placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, however, not because of anything within their power to do. Being under the law of sin and death manifests itself in a desire and a trust to justify oneself before God by works of righteousness instead of fully trusting in that which Christ alone as Saviour has achieved.

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice that it is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus itself that sets one free from the law of sin and death.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” – 2 Corinthians 5:10

Conclusion, men have Free Will in a libertarian sense.

No; no free will for those who are dead in sin - a spiritually dead person is oblivious to the spiritual - they must first be made alive by God for a truly free spiritual awareness/will. They will choose based upon their will, from which, will they always choose spiritual sin (or said another way, choosing their works) and cannot do otherwise, but that will is not the same thing as a truly free will.
To truly believe is only given to those chosen, with it coming from salvation, but not causing it, and which is given only to the elect upon becoming born-again. To the others, they remain and will remain under God's condemnation.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Jhn 3:18-19 KJV]
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 10:26 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

“No temptation has overtaken you, except what is common to man. And God is faithful. He will not allow you to be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation, will provide a way of escape also so that you will be able to endure it.”

The Bible says we have free will.

No, it doesn't. The unsaved choose but do so from a will not truly free.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In the verse you mention above, Paul is predominately addressing those already saved.

[1Co 1:2 KJV] 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

 

[rogerg]

God is able to awaken any human being, but God is unable to make that human being follow Him without them wanting to do so. There's free will in every decision we humans make. We sin by free will and we accept whether we want to follow God or not. The only thing God can do in the matter is hurt us trying to make us follow Him and that normally cause more rebellion from a human.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Bible says we have free will.

That is evident to all who are not trapped by the doctrines of men.

Had Adam not had free will -- the ability to choose right from wrong -- he could not have been held accountable for his disobedience. And even after the Fall, the free will of mankind remains. No doubt the indwelling sin nature causes men to sin more than to be righteous, but at the same time all human beings have a conscience, and therefore can choose to do what is right and acceptable to God. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel. (Rom 2:14-16)

Because human beings have free will God expects and commands obedience to the Gospel. But men can also choose to disobey the Gospel as we see here: But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

And because humans have free will, Christ commands that the Gospel be preached "in all the world" and to "every creature". But the preaching of the Gospel has only two outcomes -- obedience to the Gospel or disobedience to the Gospel: 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17,18)

The Gospel is there to generate faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. And while the Gospel is preached (or even read) the Holy Spirit convicts sinners of their sinfulness and their need to be saved, and the Holy Spirit also convinces sinners that Christ is the only Savior who can save them from Hell. That is why we read this in the Bible: 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:36,37). The hearers realized that they needed to do something. And what they did is that they repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. As a result they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The false gospel of Calvinism rejects all of this, and concocts a totally different gospel by misinterpreting and misapplying Scripture. They have "another gospel" and "another Jesus". So in fact it is a cult.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

19 Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them.
20 For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,
21 Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, but they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.

Verse 19 claims God has made it known to every human being that He exists. Verse 21 even explains after knowing this knowledge they still rejected God.

That's called "free will."

 

[rogerg]

19 Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them.
20 For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,
21 Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, but they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.

Verse 19 claims God has made it known to every human being that He exists. Verse 21 even explains after knowing this knowledge they still rejected God.

That's called "free will."

No, don't think so. Did you not read the verses I provided in my reply to you - that the minds of the unsaved and unbelieving were/are blinded? Can truly free will come out of a mind that has been blinded even when evidence is presented to it? For that to happen, it first must be unblinded; that is, the will is formulated according to the mind's assessment of the evidence given it.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[SomeDisciple]

"not yet born, neither having done good or evil" and "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (in relation to it). And it does pertain specifically to salvation.

Wrong.

It pertains to election; but not election to salvation- it's election to be an heir of the promise of blessing; specifically to be the progenitor of national Israel and Jesus.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

19 Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them.
20 For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,
21 Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, but they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.

Verse 19 claims God has made it known to every human being that He exists. Verse 21 even explains after knowing this knowledge they still rejected God.

That's called "free will."

When a person is born again. while he was yet dead spiritually (unable to understand things of the Spirit)God put the Holy Spirit within him, giving him the imputed righteousness of Christ. The only righteousness that the natural man had before he was quickened to a spiritual life was as filthy rags.

When a person is born again, they still carry the baggage of their fleshly nature, and when they turn away from God and begin to worship the idols of this world, as those in Romans one did, their actions become as filthy rags until they repent.

Most of God's well intended children cannot understand the grace of God, until they understand how unworthy, and nasty they are when they are walking in their flesh, instead of walking in the commandments of God.

The sacrifice of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart (Psalms 51:17)..

 

[rogerg]

Wrong.

It pertains to election; but not election to salvation- it's election to be an heir of the promise of blessing; specifically to be the progenitor of national Israel and Jesus.

wrong back atcha - it pertains to salvation.

[Rom 9:18, 22-23, 32-33 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, ...
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[SomeDisciple]

No, don't think so. Did you not read the verses I provided in my reply to you - that the minds of the unsaved and unbelieving were/are blinded? Can truly free will come out of a mind that has been blinded even when evidence is presented to it? For that to happen, it first must be unblinded; that is, the will is formulated according to the mind's assessment of the evidence given it.

Here's the deal.

God reveals things about himself in creation- probably before you ever hear about the Gospel or Jesus.

If you turn away from God's revelations about himself; you won't believe the Gospel either: THEREFORE, it's better that you never actually hear the gospel- otherwise, you'd be even more guilty; because to whom much is given, much is required.

 

[SomeDisciple]

wrong back atcha - it pertains to salvation.

[Rom 9:18, 22-23, 32-33 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, ...
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Nope; although, the scripture you quoted is correct; you are not.

He's chosen to have mercy on them that believe and harden those who don't. Those who don't are the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; but they had the choice all along.

 

[SomeDisciple]

To truly believe is only given to those chosen, with it coming from salvation, but not causing it, and which is given only to the elect upon becoming born-again. To the others, they remain and will remain under God's condemnation.

This is the root of "deterministic" calvinism/predestination.

The flesh is programmed for self-preservation- and while the Gospel is an "offer of grace", behind that offer of grace is a promise to destroy everyone that doesn't accept that offer.

You don't have to be "spiritual" to accept an offer that will save yourself. You just have to take the person threatening to destroy your soul at his word.