Why free will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#81
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#81
Cameron143 said:
Lastly, if God is able to change in a positive manner as you suggest, would He not also be able to do so negatively? This is what I was referring to as regression.
Click to expand...
We are ABLE to sin, but with God's Spirit's help we can avoid sinning if we choose. The more we surrender to God's Spirit, the less we sin. So, being ABLE to sin does not entail ever HAVING TO sin. God being perfectly holy never chooses to sin. God's attitude to sin is revealed in the cost to Him of the cross. So God is not going to ever regress into sin.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#82
Mar 1, 2022
19,008
6,532
113
62
#82
PaulThomson said:
Perfect means without flaws. If God knows completely everything that has actual existence and knows it accurately, how is that flawed knowledge? Why is not knowing everything that does not exist, i.e. all untrue things, a flaw in a God who is perfectly true and good



.You don't understand infinities. You can add to an infinity. That does not mean that the initial infinity was not really infinite. The set of odd numbers in infinite. If I know am able to hold all the odd numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge must be infinite. If I then discover the existence of even numbers, I can add some even numbers to my infinite odd number set. If I hold all the odd number set and five of the even numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge is still infinite. The set of odd numbers does not become less that infinite if I add new knowledge to them.

Your objection is based on flawed understanding of infinities, and confusing knowing everything (every thing) with knowing not just every thing , but also every nothing (no thing). At any time t, God knows everything that IS true. If what conditions will obtain in future presents are not settled, events in the future do not yet have real existence, and do not therefore exist to be known in the present. Therefore an all-knowing I AM does not need to know the non-existent future to know all things.
Click to expand...
If you can add to knowledge, your initial amount of knowledge wasn't infinite.

Do you believe God is infinite? Can He be infinite if He isn't infinite in every way?

I get that it's hard to conceive of a being whose abilities allow for greater realities than we can conceive and understand.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#83
Mar 1, 2022
19,008
6,532
113
62
#83
PaulThomson said:
We are ABLE to sin, but with God's Spirit's help we can avoid sinning if we choose. The more we surrender to God's Spirit, the less we sin. So, being ABLE to sin does not entail ever HAVING TO sin. God being perfectly holy never chooses to sin. God's attitude to sin is revealed in the cost to Him of the cross. So God is not going to ever regress into sin.
Click to expand...
You are right that God will never sin.
Have you given any thought to James 1:17?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#84
Jul 3, 2015
59,912
29,293
113
#84
Pilgrimshope said:
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there
is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the
things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭46:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Click to expand...

Isaiah 46:10
:)
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#85
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#85
Evmur said:
Not what God foreknew but WHO He foreknew He also predestined ....
Click to expand...
That distinction is not evident from the text you cited. But whether we read elect as "elect ones" (who) or as "elect in status" (what), it does not have to be read as implying that individuals were foreknown

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect in accordance with the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ,

It was according to what God foreknew about His means of election that the saints would be elected through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience to Him, and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.

God knew from the beginning that the elect would be made elect through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience (to the Son), and the sprinkling of Jesus Christ's blood (received by faith for cleansing from sins)".
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#86
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#86
Cameron143 said:
If you can add to knowledge, your initial amount of knowledge wasn't infinite.
Click to expand...
That is not true. If you have no beginning, your knowledge of the past must by definition be infinite. When your knowledge of the progressing present gets added to that infinite past knowledge, the result is till infinite. You simply do not understand the meaning of infinite and infinity.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#87
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#87
Cameron143 said:
You are right that God will never sin.
Have you given any thought to James 1:17?
Click to expand...
15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and ysin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Sin promises one thing and delivers something else.; offers light but gives darkness.

God does not offer light and, when we reach out to receive it, change and give us shadow. He gives good and perfect, unshadowed gifts.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#90
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#90
studentoftheword said:
I think you need to do a little more research on your statement here ------as I think you will find out your not quite right in what you say here -----

Our sins are forgiven ----so we cannot be separated from God's fellowship for committing the sin -----I think you will find out also that we are to confess our sin for our own benefit to say out loud that we sinned is admitting it and saying we don't like what we just did and we can call on God's Grace to help us do better and stay out of sin -----


In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul quotes Jesus who said, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

God is perfect in every way, giving Him the power to make up for any weaknesses we have.

Our Flesh is weak but we have Grace to call on -------Grace is a person in the New Testament ----Jesus is full of Grace and truth


John 1:17 NIV

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.



https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/do-i-need-to-repent-if-christ-died-for-all-my-sins

Do I Need to Repent If Christ Died for All My Sins?

Interview with
John Piper

Founder & Teacher, desiringGod.org

I say -----Scroll down to this heading and read what it says ----the whole article is worth the read

Confess Your Sins
Click to expand...
I think it is you that has to do a little more research. 2 Cor 6:14-18, 1 John 1:6,
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#91
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#91
studentoftheword said:
So what your saying is that God's Grace is insuffence to give you the strength to stay out of sin ---and your saying that God still imputes sin on a believer and punishes them for that ----by cutting off the fellowship ----

I strongly disagree with your way of thinking -----
Click to expand...

You might want to reconsider. Psalms 94:20-23, 1 John 1:6.
 
Evmur

Evmur

Well-known member
#93
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#93
PaulThomson said:
That distinction is not evident from the text you cited. But whether we read elect as "elect ones" (who) or as "elect in status" (what), it does not have to be read as implying that individuals were foreknown

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect in accordance with the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ,

It was according to what God foreknew about His means of election that the saints would be elected through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience to Him, and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.

God knew from the beginning that the elect would be made elect through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience (to the Son), and the sprinkling of Jesus Christ's blood (received by faith for cleansing from sins)".
Click to expand...
don't twist scripture
 
Evmur

Evmur

Well-known member
#94
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#94
Pilgrimshope said:
“There is something you don't understand my friend.

We are not told to do nothing, we are told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.”

I don’t understand what I’ve quoted many times over in the two years I’ve been here ?

“ We have brothers and sisters out there, they are in darkness, as we once were. They will be snarled into terrible sins, like we were, they are lost and frightened, longing to hear the love voice telling them where to go, what to do.”

yeah there’s a world of people out there that need to hear the gospel and see it I. Our lives


They WILL be saved because God has determined that they will be STOP REBELLING AGAINST GOD stop it.

i have no Clue where you’ve gone here lol some people here

“He has ordained that everyone should be under sin, He has ordained that we should be saved by the preaching of the gospel.

It is not my plan or yours. God is wiser than you or me.”


I’m sorry when did I claim that Gods plan was my plan ? Or tbat i was wiser than God ?I like discussing with you , but You don’t handle disagreement well brother

but I’m just an old fool , it doesn’t really matter to me if we don’t agree on everything all the time . I’m okay with that …… anyways I hope we can find agreement elsewhere it’s been nice chatting with you
Click to expand...
If you say God did not choose you in Christ before the world began you are rebelling ... stop it.

I am neither angry or displeased in debating with you, I am happy to debate with you. I regard you as a good brother.
 
studentoftheword

studentoftheword

Well-known member
#95
Nov 12, 2021
1,702
593
113
#95
ForestGreenCook said:
I think it is you that has to do a little more research. 2 Cor 6:14-18
Click to expand...

this is that scripture
Warning Against Idolatry

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[b]
17 Therefore,
“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”[c]
18 And,
“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”[d

I say to you ---you need to research this chapter ---as Paul is speaking to people here who are not Saved yet -in the Church of Corinth -------so your radar is off kilter ------he is addressing them with this warning --of idolatry------


ForestGreenCook said:
1 John 1:6,
Click to expand...
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin

I say -------------------verse 6 is speaking to people who .profess to be Christians but who are still walking in Darkness ---False Christians being addressed here ----

Again your radar is off kilter ------your throwing scripture out there not knowing what it says or who it is addressed to -----you do your research and ask the Holy Spirit for Guidance so you know what is being said ----


ForestGreenCook said:
You might want to reconsider. Psalms 94:20-23, 1 John 1:6.
Click to expand...
---First off you give a Old Testament scripture ---Salvation happens in the New Testament with Jesus ---no one was saved by the Blood of Jesus in the Old Testament ----so your scripture is irrelevant to my quote ----the blood of animals only covered sin for a period of time -----and when people sinned their relationship was affected -----but not NOW ----the Blood covers our sins and God remembers them NO MORE ----- our relationship is maintained ----PERIOD

And your other scripture I already addressed about ---talking to False Christians ----who are still walking in the dark ----

verse 6 is speaking to people who .profess to be Christians but who are still walking in Darkness ---False Christians being addressed here ----

So you need to go back to the drawing board and drum up some scriptures that prove your point whatever it may be ------
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#98
Mar 1, 2022
19,008
6,532
113
62
#98
PaulThomson said:
But a person who knows all the odd numbers has infinite knowledge.
Click to expand...
Who knows all the odd numbers? Knowing that something is infinite is different from knowing each element of the group. You know God is infinite. Do you know everything there is to know about God?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.