Why free will?
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I recently brushed up a little regarding a Hebrew alphabet letter study when I saw that someone had asked about the number 10, to see if I could offer anything I learned to the conversation. Though I did decide to forego that particular conversation after I wasn't so sure about the direction it was heading, a tidbit of the study stayed with me to this point. I'd even say it was a 'jot,' with is the smallest little 'tittle' on the 10th letter 'vav,' which is considered necessary in the formation of every other letter in the alphabet, and without it no other letter could be formed, even though it is the smallest, most humble of letters.
Maybe I'm just taking advantage of the to share what might otherwise seem trivial but, it seems significant enough to me that it is not time wasted, even if others may totally miss the point.
If there were a reason that she must've experienced five marriages, perhaps failing for various, unrelated reasons or even for the same reason over and over again, how can we know it? And does it specifying that she was shacking up with someone when Jesus said, "And the one you are with now is not your husband"? I can think of other scenarios this declaration might suggest, such as still be married to the fifth but not being with him but another, or married a 6th time but he doesn't love, honor, nor cherish her in the charge of a husband. At any rate, Jesus was able to show her, in sharp contrast, a (so very rare) one that, "knows everything about me...." or she might have said to closer friends (however apparently, she had few), "knows me intimately," you know, like the ideal husband would.
Maybe I'm just taking advantage of the to share what might otherwise seem trivial but, it seems significant enough to me that it is not time wasted, even if others may totally miss the point.
If there were a reason that she must've experienced five marriages, perhaps failing for various, unrelated reasons or even for the same reason over and over again, how can we know it? And does it specifying that she was shacking up with someone when Jesus said, "And the one you are with now is not your husband"? I can think of other scenarios this declaration might suggest, such as still be married to the fifth but not being with him but another, or married a 6th time but he doesn't love, honor, nor cherish her in the charge of a husband. At any rate, Jesus was able to show her, in sharp contrast, a (so very rare) one that, "knows everything about me...." or she might have said to closer friends (however apparently, she had few), "knows me intimately," you know, like the ideal husband would.
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You believe in His permissive will correct? I believe that the only death that was planned and chosen was the Lord Jesus Christ. His creation is allowed to live freely and we reap what we sow. He didn't cause and plan mankind to fall.....He allowed it and has provisions in place for EVERYTHING.........Hence perfect knowledge, all knowing, down to every atom in this universe.
It's talking about the character of God. In this instance, His faithfulness. But it applies to all of His attributes. That would include His omniscience.
That's the reason I asked the question about what perfection meant. If it means being perfected or completed, it means that the character of God is subject to change as He grows in knowledge.
So do you believe that God is growing in knowledge?
That's the reason I asked the question about what perfection meant. If it means being perfected or completed, it means that the character of God is subject to change as He grows in knowledge.
So do you believe that God is growing in knowledge?
, vav is the 6th letter, for the sake of accuracy
You apply this statement "I the LORD change not" beyond it's actual contextual meaning only by eisegeting your theological prejudice into the text in question.
It is not a text that proves exhaustive eternal foreknowledge, if one has to read exhaustive eternal foreknowledge into the text in order to "find" it there.
Do you have a better example of a text you think must posit exhaustive divine foreknowledge?
It is not a text that proves exhaustive eternal foreknowledge, if one has to read exhaustive eternal foreknowledge into the text in order to "find" it there.
Do you have a better example of a text you think must posit exhaustive divine foreknowledge?
“For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”
1 John 3:20
you seem to be taking some liberty with what I’m saying
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”
Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
It doesn’t seem like he’s planning contingencies incase his plan doesn’t work out does it ? Or he’s waiting to see later what he’s gonna do … sounds like he declared it from the beginning . Sounds more like he’s declared it and it will surely come to pass …..Sometimes we try to think of God as he is like us or we are like him
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 Peter 1:1-3 KJV
But again it doesn’t affect me or bother me what you think about God , my conclusion here is we have different opinions about it I dont see an issue with that myself …..
1 John 3:20
you seem to be taking some liberty with what I’m saying
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”
Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
It doesn’t seem like he’s planning contingencies incase his plan doesn’t work out does it ? Or he’s waiting to see later what he’s gonna do … sounds like he declared it from the beginning . Sounds more like he’s declared it and it will surely come to pass …..Sometimes we try to think of God as he is like us or we are like him
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 Peter 1:1-3 KJV
But again it doesn’t affect me or bother me what you think about God , my conclusion here is we have different opinions about it I dont see an issue with that myself …..
This is speaking of present knowledge of what IS in our heart, not knowledge of future things, which do not yet exist to be known.
Besides, the expression "to know all things" is obviously not of necessity a statement of omnicience.
1 John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One and you know all things.
Besides, the expression "to know all things" is obviously not of necessity a statement of omnicience.
1 John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One and you know all things.
The end and the beginning are not the entire network of actualised events. Knowing the end of something does not necessitate a claim exhaustively to foreknow everything leading up to that end.
All I'm pointing out is that the claims of some to biblical orthodoxy for their exhaustive eternal foreknowledge theories are not actually exegeted from scripture, but are eisegeted into scripture, and there are other simpler and more straight-forward interpretations regarding the content of God's knowledge that are more naturally flow from the relevant biblical texts when they are read in context.
I agree that opinions on God's epistemology are not salvific.
All I'm pointing out is that the claims of some to biblical orthodoxy for their exhaustive eternal foreknowledge theories are not actually exegeted from scripture, but are eisegeted into scripture, and there are other simpler and more straight-forward interpretations regarding the content of God's knowledge that are more naturally flow from the relevant biblical texts when they are read in context.
I agree that opinions on God's epistemology are not salvific.
Word and phrase order is rather fluid in Koine Greek.
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect in accordance with the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ,
It was according to what God foreknew about His means of election that the saints would be elected through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience to Him, and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.
God knew from the beginning that the elect would be made elect through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience (to the Son), and the sprinkling of Jesus Christ's blood (received by faith for cleansing from sins".
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect in accordance with the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ,
It was according to what God foreknew about His means of election that the saints would be elected through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience to Him, and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.
God knew from the beginning that the elect would be made elect through sanctification by the Spirit for obedience (to the Son), and the sprinkling of Jesus Christ's blood (received by faith for cleansing from sins".
It's a fair criticism on your part to say I went beyond the text in my reasoning. But that doesn't mean it's wrong.
If a particular attribute of God is unchanging, is it wrong to extrapolate that all the attributes of God are immutable? I have no difficulty making the leap.
So before moving forward, do you believe that God is static in His nature or dynamic? Are His attributes unchanging, or do they progress over time? Can God have a regression in His attributes?
If a particular attribute of God is unchanging, is it wrong to extrapolate that all the attributes of God are immutable? I have no difficulty making the leap.
So before moving forward, do you believe that God is static in His nature or dynamic? Are His attributes unchanging, or do they progress over time? Can God have a regression in His attributes?
A perfect being would be able to change in those ways in which it is good to change, and be unchanging in any ways in which it would be good not to change. Gaining information as more information comes into being is good. Changing His approach to an individual as that person changes in response to Him would be good. Changing one's plans when circumstances change and a better path is recognised as now being preferable, is a good thing for a perfect being to do. Not changing in holiness, truthfulness and faithfulness would be good for a perfect being to do. etc.
God is consistent in some aspects and dynamic in others. You would need to explain what you mean by "a regression" in terms of attributes?
God is consistent in some aspects and dynamic in others. You would need to explain what you mean by "a regression" in terms of attributes?
I appreciate your answer. When I began the discussion, I asked for clarity on the term perfect. Biblically, perfect would mean complete. In Ephesians 4, God gave ministers for the perfecting of the saints. They were given to help those not perfect become increasingly perfect or complete. So, in calling God a perfect being, it presents the question: is God complete and actually perfect if His knowledge remains incomplete as you suggest? And if God can come to the knowledge of a better path, is He perfect?
When I refer to immutability, I am only considering the nature and attributes of God. When God responds differently to different responses, or even acts differently for the identical responses, this isn't because God has changed in any way. Implicit in God's justice is His mercy. They are complementary attributes. So His differing responses actually reinforce His immutability. My question, though, is...is God omniscient? To be omniscient, by definition, one cannot increase in knowledge. If your argument is that only applies to knowledge of things existing or have come to pass, that still doesn't answer my first question and God would always be in an estate of being perfected, wouldn't it?
Lastly, if God is able to change in a positive manner as you suggest, would He not also be able to do so negatively? This is what I was referring to as regression.
Second lastly, I should have cited James 1:17 earlier...Father...with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning...This might have cleared up some things initially.
When I refer to immutability, I am only considering the nature and attributes of God. When God responds differently to different responses, or even acts differently for the identical responses, this isn't because God has changed in any way. Implicit in God's justice is His mercy. They are complementary attributes. So His differing responses actually reinforce His immutability. My question, though, is...is God omniscient? To be omniscient, by definition, one cannot increase in knowledge. If your argument is that only applies to knowledge of things existing or have come to pass, that still doesn't answer my first question and God would always be in an estate of being perfected, wouldn't it?
Lastly, if God is able to change in a positive manner as you suggest, would He not also be able to do so negatively? This is what I was referring to as regression.
Second lastly, I should have cited James 1:17 earlier...Father...with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning...This might have cleared up some things initially.
You have got to have salvation before you can work it out ... not many christians tremble these days.
There is something you don't understand my friend.
We are not told to do nothing, we are told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.
We have brothers and sisters out there, they are in darkness, as we once were. They will be snarled into terrible sins, like we were, they are lost and frightened, longing to hear the love voice telling them where to go, what to do. They WILL be saved because God has determined that they will be STOP REBELLING AGAINST GOD [you like bold type] stop it.
I did not say we were chosen in Christ before the world began GOD SAID IT stop rebelling against Him.
He has ordained that everyone should be under sin, He has ordained that we should be saved by the preaching of the gospel. It is not my plan or yours. God is wiser than you or me.
There is something you don't understand my friend.
We are not told to do nothing, we are told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.
We have brothers and sisters out there, they are in darkness, as we once were. They will be snarled into terrible sins, like we were, they are lost and frightened, longing to hear the love voice telling them where to go, what to do. They WILL be saved because God has determined that they will be STOP REBELLING AGAINST GOD [you like bold type] stop it.
I did not say we were chosen in Christ before the world began GOD SAID IT stop rebelling against Him.
He has ordained that everyone should be under sin, He has ordained that we should be saved by the preaching of the gospel. It is not my plan or yours. God is wiser than you or me.
What we have is choice as children of God.
We can either submit to God's will, or we can just carry on in our old way of our will, which is not free but will lead us straight back to bondage and backsliding ... is that what many Christians do?
When we got saved we submitted to Christ as Lord [else we would not have been saved] we surrendered our will. But as soon as we get to discipleship school we learn we have freewill all over again.
We can either submit to God's will, or we can just carry on in our old way of our will, which is not free but will lead us straight back to bondage and backsliding ... is that what many Christians do?
When we got saved we submitted to Christ as Lord [else we would not have been saved] we surrendered our will. But as soon as we get to discipleship school we learn we have freewill all over again.
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“There is something you don't understand my friend.
We are not told to do nothing, we are told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.”
I don’t understand what I’ve quoted many times over in the two years I’ve been here ?
“ We have brothers and sisters out there, they are in darkness, as we once were. They will be snarled into terrible sins, like we were, they are lost and frightened, longing to hear the love voice telling them where to go, what to do.”
yeah there’s a world of people out there that need to hear the gospel and see it I. Our lives
They WILL be saved because God has determined that they will be STOP REBELLING AGAINST GOD stop it.
i have no Clue where you’ve gone here lol some people here
“He has ordained that everyone should be under sin, He has ordained that we should be saved by the preaching of the gospel.
It is not my plan or yours. God is wiser than you or me.”
I’m sorry when did I claim that Gods plan was my plan ? Or tbat i was wiser than God ?I like discussing with you , but You don’t handle disagreement well brother
but I’m just an old fool , it doesn’t really matter to me if we don’t agree on everything all the time . I’m okay with that …… anyways I hope we can find agreement elsewhere it’s been nice chatting with you
We are not told to do nothing, we are told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.”
I don’t understand what I’ve quoted many times over in the two years I’ve been here ?
“ We have brothers and sisters out there, they are in darkness, as we once were. They will be snarled into terrible sins, like we were, they are lost and frightened, longing to hear the love voice telling them where to go, what to do.”
yeah there’s a world of people out there that need to hear the gospel and see it I. Our lives
They WILL be saved because God has determined that they will be STOP REBELLING AGAINST GOD stop it.
i have no Clue where you’ve gone here lol some people here
“He has ordained that everyone should be under sin, He has ordained that we should be saved by the preaching of the gospel.
It is not my plan or yours. God is wiser than you or me.”
I’m sorry when did I claim that Gods plan was my plan ? Or tbat i was wiser than God ?I like discussing with you , but You don’t handle disagreement well brother
but I’m just an old fool , it doesn’t really matter to me if we don’t agree on everything all the time . I’m okay with that …… anyways I hope we can find agreement elsewhere it’s been nice chatting with you
Perfect means without flaws. If God knows completely everything that has actual existence and knows it accurately, how is that flawed knowledge? Why is not knowing everything that does not exist, i.e. all untrue things, a flaw in a God who is perfectly true and good
.You don't understand infinities. You can add to an infinity. That does not mean that the initial infinity was not really infinite. The set of odd numbers in infinite. If I know am able to hold all the odd numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge must be infinite. If I then discover the existence of even numbers, I can add some even numbers to my infinite odd number set. If I hold all the odd number set and five of the even numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge is still infinite. The set of odd numbers does not become less that infinite if I add new knowledge to them.
Your objection is based on flawed understanding of infinities, and confusing knowing everything (every thing) with knowing not just every thing , but also every nothing (no thing). At any time t, God knows everything that IS true. If what conditions will obtain in future presents are not settled, events in the future do not yet have real existence, and do not therefore exist to be known in the present. Therefore an all-knowing I AM does not need to know the non-existent future to know all things.
.You don't understand infinities. You can add to an infinity. That does not mean that the initial infinity was not really infinite. The set of odd numbers in infinite. If I know am able to hold all the odd numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge must be infinite. If I then discover the existence of even numbers, I can add some even numbers to my infinite odd number set. If I hold all the odd number set and five of the even numbers in my mind at once, my knowledge is still infinite. The set of odd numbers does not become less that infinite if I add new knowledge to them.
Your objection is based on flawed understanding of infinities, and confusing knowing everything (every thing) with knowing not just every thing , but also every nothing (no thing). At any time t, God knows everything that IS true. If what conditions will obtain in future presents are not settled, events in the future do not yet have real existence, and do not therefore exist to be known in the present. Therefore an all-knowing I AM does not need to know the non-existent future to know all things.