The meaning of salvation

[Cameron143]

Agreed!

We are saved by grace through faith to be with the Lord forever.
We must obey the Lord to grow in maturity and responsibility.

There are many Christians who are content to be pew-sitters until their dying day. Age does not make one mature in the Lord.

This reminds me of the man who had worked for a company for 20 years. As his superior was retiring, he anticipated getting a promotion. He was very surprised and somewhat angered when someone was promoted who had only been with the company for 7 years. So he inquired of the boss as to why? The answer he received was that the other employee had seven years experience in the seven years he had worked. He, on the other hand, had one year of experience in the twenty years he had worked.
Unfortunately, the same is true of many Christians.

 

[Chester]

If a “whosoever” person believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are they elect?

Yes, absolutely! PTL! (Actually probably more correct to say they join the group of the elect)

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, absolutely! PTL! (Actually probably more correct to say they join the group of the elect)

Aren't the elect chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world?

 

[Chester]

Aren't the elect chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Ephesians 1:4,5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself . . . "

The word "predestinated" here means "to mark out the boundaries ahead of time." I see this simply as that God before the foundation of the world marked out the boundaries of what the church would be: that is - they would be his sons and daughters, and he would make them blameless (by forgiveness through the blood).

The object of the "choosing" and "predestined" here is always plural: that is = a group of people - the church.

God predestined or chose the church to be holy, blameless, and to be his sons and daughters. (To me that seems like a wonderful, gracious, loving plan!).

Now today when an individual chooses (believes) in Jesus Christ, he becomes a part of that church - God's plan of predestination.

Calvinism has made "predestination" into something primarily about individuals (rather than a plural group) and about getting to heaven or hell (rather than about being sons/daughters of the King!)

 

[selahsays]

Yes, absolutely! PTL! (Actually probably more correct to say they join the group of the elect)

EXACTLY!!!!

PTL!

 

[Niki7]

I think it very brazenly when someone belittles God's power, by telling me that God wants to eternally deliver all mankind, but he just does not have the power over mankind to do so.

Is Dan 4:35 in your version of the bible? Or Isaiah 55:11? Or Isiah 46:10-11? Eph 1:11? Heb 6:17?.Rom 8:19?

That does not even make sense. But of course if you believe that we have no choice in whether or not we accept Christ, then yes, to that person it would make sense

But that is not what Scripture teaches. Whosoever will does not mean unless God smacks you away when you fall on your knees, repent and accept Christ and desire to live for Him

 

[Niki7]

Hi Magenta, thanks for your comment. I hope that you do realize that the faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is not the believer's faith, but is Christ Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

Actually, that verse is stating that salvation is a gift. Faith is the action that receives that gift.

The more I learn about how some people believe we have no choice in salvation, the more I am in wonderment that such delusion and deception is given free rein among them.

 

[CS1]

The definition of salvation , according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance"

there is a one time eternal deliverance that happened on the cross by Jesus remitting the sins of those that his Father gave him.

There will never be any other eternal deliverance's given as Jesus stated, while on the cross, "it is finished" meaning that the purpose of God sending him to earth as a man was finished on the cross.

If the scriptures are interpreted right, there are many deliverance's (salvation's) for his elect, as they sojourn here in earth, by their good works

Eternal deliverance is given by God's grace. The other deliverance's are earned by the good works of God's born again elect.

Sozo Salvation : saved, healed and delivered.

 

[Cameron143]

Ephesians 1:4,5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself . . . "

The word "predestinated" here means "to mark out the boundaries ahead of time." I see this simply as that God before the foundation of the world marked out the boundaries of what the church would be: that is - they would be his sons and daughters, and he would make them blameless (by forgiveness through the blood).

The object of the "choosing" and "predestined" here is always plural: that is = a group of people - the church.

God predestined or chose the church to be holy, blameless, and to be his sons and daughters. (To me that seems like a wonderful, gracious, loving plan!).

Now today when an individual chooses (believes) in Jesus Christ, he becomes a part of that church - God's plan of predestination.

Calvinism has made "predestination" into something primarily about individuals (rather than a plural group) and about getting to heaven or hell (rather than about being sons/daughters of the King!)

I see. I'm familiar with the position. I've just never heard anyone holding that position employ the language of election as you did.

 

[selahsays]

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

Actually, that verse is stating that salvation is a gift. Faith is the action that receives that gift.

The more I learn about how some people believe we have no choice in salvation, the more I am in wonderment that such delusion and deception is given free rein among them.

Everyone, in my opinion, is given free will in this earth age to choose Jesus Christ as their Savior.

 

[Chester]

I see. I'm familiar with the position. I've just never heard anyone holding that position employ the language of election as you did.

If you have ever read Paul's writings - he says it the same way! (Chuckle!)

 

[Cameron143]

If you have ever read Paul's writings - he says it the same way! (Chuckle!)

Doesn't Romans 9 deal with individuals?

 

[selahsays]

Ephesians 1:4,5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself . . . "

The word "predestinated" here means "to mark out the boundaries ahead of time." I see this simply as that God before the foundation of the world marked out the boundaries of what the church would be: that is - they would be his sons and daughters, and he would make them blameless (by forgiveness through the blood).

The object of the "choosing" and "predestined" here is always plural: that is = a group of people - the church.

God predestined or chose the church to be holy, blameless, and to be his sons and daughters. (To me that seems like a wonderful, gracious, loving plan!).

Now today when an individual chooses (believes) in Jesus Christ, he becomes a part of that church - God's plan of predestination.

Calvinism has made "predestination" into something primarily about individuals (rather than a plural group) and about getting to heaven or hell (rather than about being sons/daughters of the King!)

I have a little different understanding regarding predestination. I believe God predestined individuals (not a group) due to His foreknowledge of each individual person. As we read in Jeremiah 1:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD. Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

- Jeremiah 1:5-9 (KJV)

 

[Chester]

Doesn't Romans 9 deal with individuals?

Now that would be an interesting discussion and I wish I had time to engage with you in it - but time won't allow it now . . .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

II Peter 3:9

I suggest to you, that you keep in mind that all scriptures must harmonize, before you can understand the truth.

You are taking 2 Peter out of context. You must first establish who Peter is speaking to, and it is "to them that has obtained like precious faith" (2 Pet 1:1).

If you use a concordance, Strong's says that "perish=death & death=separation

Peter is reminding them of God's promise of their eternal inheritance, but is longsuffering, even including himself by using the word "us-ward, not willing that any (of us) should separate ourselves from God's fellowship by committing a sin, but that we all should come to repentance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That does not even make sense. But of course if you believe that we have no choice in whether or not we accept Christ, then yes, to that person it would make sense

But that is not what Scripture teaches. Whosoever will does not mean unless God smacks you away when you fall on your knees, repent and accept Christ and desire to live for Him

The whosoever will's are those who have been born again by spiritual birth.

The natural man, who cannot discern spiritual things, thinking them to be foolishness, is not one of the whosoever will's.

 

[Cameron143]

Now that would be an interesting discussion and I wish I had time to engage with you in it - but time won't allow it now . . .

Perhaps another time. Have enjoyed the conversation. Thanks.

 

[Niki7]

The whosoever will's are those who have been born again by spiritual birth.

The natural man, who cannot discern spiritual things, thinking them to be foolishness, is not one of the whosoever will's.

That would be impossible. You cancel the 'whosoever will' if you make it past tense

Whosoever will...or whoever so chooses...would include ALL future actions. However, you cancel that option...which is in scripture...by designating that meaning to a past tense occurrence

You cannot say whoever wants to may and then state it is only those who already have

You know, scripture is pretty logical in the way it follows and explains itself.

 

[Niki7]

I suggest to you, that you keep in mind that all scriptures must harmonize, before you can understand the truth.

And I suggest to you that you believe your statement wherein you said that Scripture must harmonize

It does actually. Peter made both statements; those who had accepted Christ and those who would accept Christ

I mean does it hurt that much to refuse to see that both statements were made in the same letter? You choose to only accept the first one


9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

What part of God is patient because he wants everyone to repent is past your understanding?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That would be impossible. You cancel the 'whosoever will' if you make it past tense

Whosoever will...or whoever so chooses...would include ALL future actions. However, you cancel that option...which is in scripture...by designating that meaning to a past tense occurrence

You cannot say whoever wants to may and then state it is only those who already have

You know, scripture is pretty logical in the way it follows and explains itself.

You are claiming that the natural man, before he has been born again choose to be born again, and that thought will not harmonize with Eph 2. God quickens people to a new spiritual life when they are still dead in their sins. They cannot choose to be born again spiritually, when they are still dead spiritually.