The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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brightfame52 said:
True Believers
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true believers believe God when He tells us that faith is not works.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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7thMoon said:
God, and Jesus are the saviors. Jesus is a lone savior on planet earth.
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I meant that Jesus is not the only savior on planet earth. Fireman, and physicians are saviors by the biblical definition of saviors, but to think that one saves oneself into the afterlife is a common Christian mistake, and an impossibility. God wakes nekroi which is the English definition of the word save, but not the biblical one. Unfortunately, scolding or embarrassing wrongdoers is the only way to preach effectively, so any a someone doesn't end up in Hades.
 
Glorying in the Cross of Christ !2

We Glory in Christ Cross/Blood alone because by it, even when we were enemies, unbelievers, at active enmity against God, we were still reconciled to God by the Blood of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death[Cross, Blood] of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

When this Truth is revealed to God given Faith, we Glory in the Cross of Christ. This Reconciliation by the Cross of Christ takes place without our Faith, without our consent, in fact without our knowledge of it, but while in ignorance.

Also by it [The Cross, Blood, Death] of Christ, without Faith, We are Justified before God and Declared Righteous before Him, Per Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This obedience of His is His obedience unto the Cross Phil 2:8

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

All this happened as a result and effect of the Cross of Christ apart from any of our obedience, faith, repentance of our own, and while we were enemies, and by this way, Christ has secured unto Himself all the Glory of Our Salvation, and by this Knowledge being communicated to us, We Glory in the Cross, Boast in the Lord and what His Cross has done ! 46
 
Glorying in the Cross of Christ !2

We Glory in Christ Cross/Blood alone because by it, even when we were enemies, unbelievers, at active enmity against God, we were still reconciled to God by the Blood of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death[Cross, Blood] of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

When this Truth is revealed to God given Faith, we Glory in the Cross of Christ. This Reconciliation by the Cross of Christ takes place without our Faith, without our consent, in fact without our knowledge of it, but while in ignorance.

Also by it [The Cross, Blood, Death] of Christ, without Faith, We are Justified before God and Declared Righteous before Him, Per Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This obedience of His is His obedience unto the Cross Phil 2:8

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

All this happened as a result and effect of the Cross of Christ apart from any of our obedience, faith, repentance of our own, and while we were enemies, and by this way, Christ has secured unto Himself all the Glory of Our Salvation, and by this Knowledge being communicated to us, We Glory in the Cross, Boast in the Lord and what His Cross has done ! 46
reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... nope. Ephesians 2 tells us that prior to being born again, all believers were children of wrath ...

Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

... which is why mankind needs the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.


And it is not until we believe that Jesus is Messiah ... then we are born of God:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

please note that 1 John 5:1 does not state that we are born of God and then believe Jesus is Messiah ...


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Opposing the Truth
 
reneweddaybyday said:
The words "for to give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi ...

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon (bold mine):

6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect; and​
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...​
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b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31 ...​





The words "will give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi ...





1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so sad you do not believe what the Author of Scripture has written.





:rolleyes: ... no it's not ... it's an indictment against those who do not believe.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Opposing the Truth
 
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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... nope. Ephesians 2 tells us that prior to being born again, all believers were children of wrath ...

Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

... which is why mankind needs the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.


And it is not until we believe that Jesus is Messiah ... then we are born of God:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

please note that 1 John 5:1 does not state that we are born of God and then believe Jesus is Messiah ...


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say whosoever will believe, which eliminates the natural man. Believeth is present tense. It is also the same wording in John 3:16.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... in 1 Tim 1:3, Paul said that he had exhorted Timothy to remain in Ephesus to make sure that correct doctrine was being taught.

1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine

Paul wanted Timothy to remain in Ephesus until others were able to teach. Timothy was to commit the doctrine to faithful men who would be able to teach others.

In 1 Timothy 2:1, Paul exhorted Timothy concerning prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks ... that these various types of prayers be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You wanting the all men to be saved to relate only to a subset of humanity does not make it so.

Just read God's Word as written and believe what the Author has written.





:rolleyes: ... the word "perish" in 2 Peter 3:9 is translated from the Greek word apóllymi which means to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery (Thayer's Greek Lexicon).

So you want me to believe that the born again believer can or will incur the loss of eternal life???

Just read the verse as written ... and believe what is written ... God's desire is that all mankind come to repentence. However, God's justice requires all mankind to come to Him through the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The only way to not perish is to not reject God's provision.
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2 Pet 3:9 - All of the scriptures are God inspired. We cannot take away from them, nor add anything to them, and they must ALL harmonize, before we are to understand the truth in Jesus's doctrine.

Thayer's points out under 1) different uses of the word "perish" noted in a), b), c), d), e), & f). You chose to use e).

By using your choice, it must harmonize with ALL of the other scriptures. I am believing that d) "To declare that one must be but to death", is more in harmony, considering Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY=(put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live. The "YE" in verse 13, has reference to Paul's "BRETHREN" in verse 12.

The interpretation of 2 Pet 3:9, as I have explained it, holds true.

1 Tim 2;1 also holds true in harmony with the other scriptures, as I have explained it.

Be sure to consider all of the other scriptures in your interpretations. If you will include all of the scriptures they will fit together like a beautiful picture puzzle. In your desperation, you attempt to put thumb pressure on the ear of a piece of the puzzle (scripture) that has all of the right colors to try and force it to fit.

My advice for you is to consider all of the scriptures in harmony with each other.
 
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ForestGreenCook said:
Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say whosoever will believe, which eliminates the natural man. Believeth is present tense. It is also the same wording in John 3:16.
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Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say "Whosoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ was born of God:" But "Whosoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
This means that this text is not a poof text for either position. Believing could happen at the same time as being born of God, or being born again could happen before believing. The Greek text is not clear one way or the other.

John 3:16 ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during that time) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life.

In other words, " ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during the time they are believing) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life (during the time they are believing).

According to the Greek here, having aeonous life is a consequence of believing.
The Grek here does not indicate that believing is a consequence of having aeonous life.
 
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ForestGreenCook said:
1 Tim 2;1 also holds true in harmony with the other scriptures, as I have explained it.
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How do you exegete 1 Timothy 2:1 ?

1 Tim. 2 :1-7
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.

Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.

This is good and pleases God our Savior,

who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

And I have been chosen as a preacher and apostle to teach the nations this message about faith and truth. I’m not exaggerating—just telling the truth.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... if they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, they are not born again.
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Give me a scripture that is in harmony with your statement.

2 Tim 2:13 - If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself. When we are born again we are in Christ Jesus and he is in us.
 
PaulThomson said:
Why are you ignoring Eph 2:2-3 ?
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I try not to ignore any of the scriptures, because they all have to harmonize to understand Christ's doctrine.

God's elect, even though Christ redeemed them from their sins on the cross, and promised them an eternal inheritance, are born into this world, by natural birth, as children of wrath, and at sometime in their life quickens them to a new spiritual life.
 
PaulThomson said:
I agree. That is what I said. We are not our own saviours. We cannot save ourselves without receiving Christ as our Saviour. But scripture says "Save yourselves." What are you going to do with that? Are you simply going to ignore that command and cobble together a soteriology that excludes it?
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If a body part causes someone to sin, we are supposed to cut it off or pluck it out. This is not about salvation at all, but repentance. We are supposed to be productive. We can't wake ourselves from the dead, but after we are, it is once saved always "saved". No one who is alive is ever safe or saved.

But the Greek word soter means something which rescues without the need for salvage.
 
PaulThomson said:
How do you exegete 1 Timothy 2:1 ?

1 Tim. 2 :1-7
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.

Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.

This is good and pleases God our Savior,

who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

And I have been chosen as a preacher and apostle to teach the nations this message about faith and truth. I’m not exaggerating—just telling the truth.
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I believe the scriptures to teach that God has power over all of humanity (Dan 4:35) and that he accomplishes all of his will. God does not plan things, He purpose's things.

I believe God has given mankind the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here in this world, and he saw that none would seek him, no, not one, both his elect (Eph 1:4) and those that are not his elect.

God gave his elect to his Son that he would redeem them from their sins on the cross, which he accomplished, and promised them an eternal inheritance (John 6:37-49).

1 Tim 2:1-4 - Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to charge some members of the church, that they should teach no other doctrine (1 Tim 1:3).

I believe the scriptures to teach that the elect (church) should obey those that have the rule over them as they sojourn here on earth, unless it conflicts with God' laws. The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:1, refers to those government men who have authority over them, that the church might lead a quit and peaceful life.

"Saved" in verse 4 means delivered, according to Greek translation. The "all men" in verse 4 refers to all of those men that are teaching another doctrine to be delivered from their ignorance of their knowledge of the truth.

There is a deliverance (salvation) here on earth, when a babe in Christ comes unto a knowledge of the truth. Another example of this is recorded in Rom 10:1-3.
 
PaulThomson said:
According to the Greek here, having aeonous life is a consequence of believing.
The Grek here does not indicate that believing is a consequence of having aeonous life.
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No, yet believing is from having been given Christ's faith; Christ's faith from having been born again;
born again from having been saved; "aeonous life" from having been saved.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
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