TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!
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Regarding the 1st century and the destruction of the temple...
Luke 21:2424 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Jews are still scattered into the nations and will not be completely regathered until the day that Jesus returns to this earth in Matthew 24:30-31.
Luke 21:2424 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Jews are still scattered into the nations and will not be completely regathered until the day that Jesus returns to this earth in Matthew 24:30-31.
He did come first century and poured out the wrath of God that John the Baptist warned was coming and all should flee.
It was always Jesus who executed the plans of the Father. We see it in OT theophanies. You have no problem with those I assume. Paul wrote of His imminent return. Jesus explained what was coming upon Israel. Do you think He lacked the ability to cause every eye to see Him? But you assume it didn't happen even though scripture speaks of it happening imminently? You think because we have better systems of communication today that it must be speaking about our time despite the fact that you know nothing is impossible with God? You believe this is walking by faith and not by sight? Do you really believe we are interpret scripture by what is possible for men?
It was always Jesus who executed the plans of the Father. We see it in OT theophanies. You have no problem with those I assume. Paul wrote of His imminent return. Jesus explained what was coming upon Israel. Do you think He lacked the ability to cause every eye to see Him? But you assume it didn't happen even though scripture speaks of it happening imminently? You think because we have better systems of communication today that it must be speaking about our time despite the fact that you know nothing is impossible with God? You believe this is walking by faith and not by sight? Do you really believe we are interpret scripture by what is possible for men?
Luke 21:24 describes what happened in the first century. So does Matthew 24. God's people were raptured and tribulation did effect the known world of that time. You can read about it in Matthew 24, Mark 12 I think, and Luke 21 and 24.
The links to Daniel are obvious as well. When the armies surround Jerusalem.
Why would warnings that the tribulation being on the Sabbath, or winter, or being pregnant apply to us today? We wouldn't have problems fleeing on the Sabbath...we have no law against it. We can easily travel through inclement weather, and travel during pregnancy can be inconvenient but not like walking or riding an animal would be?
You are using a 21st century mindset to evaluate a 1st century message.
The links to Daniel are obvious as well. When the armies surround Jerusalem.
Why would warnings that the tribulation being on the Sabbath, or winter, or being pregnant apply to us today? We wouldn't have problems fleeing on the Sabbath...we have no law against it. We can easily travel through inclement weather, and travel during pregnancy can be inconvenient but not like walking or riding an animal would be?
You are using a 21st century mindset to evaluate a 1st century message.
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Excellent. We are making progress. Because it is evident to the vast audience that you are stuck in your heresy bunker, surrounded by superior forces, in a dire and untenable, indefensible position, completely disarmed, out of ammo, and down for the count.
However, the way of escape is yet available.......thru the narrow gate of sound Biblical doctrine.
Just think of it: exiting the dark dank lonely cavern into which you are now imprisoned thru the narrow gate of Christs doctrinal truth to freedom on the other side, to enjoy the light of God's love and renewed purpose, and the warm embrace of the brethren.
What are you waiting for.....?
However, the way of escape is yet available.......thru the narrow gate of sound Biblical doctrine.
Just think of it: exiting the dark dank lonely cavern into which you are now imprisoned thru the narrow gate of Christs doctrinal truth to freedom on the other side, to enjoy the light of God's love and renewed purpose, and the warm embrace of the brethren.
What are you waiting for.....?
I only have this information on continuous theology
Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called "sign gifts", such as tongues and prophecy.
What continuous theology are you talking about ?
I have no idea
Besides I can't see anything wrong with speaking prophecy or tongues.
I'm sick to death of you accusing him.
Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called "sign gifts", such as tongues and prophecy.
What continuous theology are you talking about ?
I have no idea
Besides I can't see anything wrong with speaking prophecy or tongues.
I'm sick to death of you accusing him.
Nor does @Cameron143
I mean how can one make sensible that which is senseless?
Or make true that which is a lie?
I mean how can one make sensible that which is senseless?
Or make true that which is a lie?
so are you going to watch your brothers sit here day after day watching you accusing a brother of sin, and not even explain what the sin is. Or give an interpretation of continuous theology.
So in other words we have to see this abuse unfold. everyday and watch a lamb be stabbed
Do you realise Cameron could have a fragile mind
Now state what exactly your accusing Cameron off..
.
So in other words we have to see this abuse unfold. everyday and watch a lamb be stabbed
Do you realise Cameron could have a fragile mind
Now state what exactly your accusing Cameron off..
.
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brother God doesn’t measure time like we do
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17 KJV
“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: and the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”
Genesis 5:3-5 KJV
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
2 Peter 3:8
a thousand years to you and I could be as a single day to God he isn’t within a timeline when he says “ I’m coming soon “ that could mean ten thousand years because he is speaking not from our perspective of time but his
he told Adam “in the day you eat the fruit you’ll surely die “ Adam lives nearly a thousand years
i think you should consider that what happened in 70 ad was about the conclusion of the ot prophets and then look at the New Testament prophecy as from those days forward until the end of the world
There is prophecy for that time and what happened and then also there is prophecy about the end of the earth and the day the lord returns to gather up his people.
thimk about the ot …how long was the promise for the messiah to come before he came ?
The New Testament promises the messiah will come also and every human eye will see it jew and gentile
i think you have a good view of the ot prophecies being fulfilled but what about all the New Testament prophecy foretelling the end of the world and Jesus returning from heaven ? That stuff is in there also
The ot gets us to the gospel and what happened to Jerusalem the nt is about beginning at Jerusalem and spreading through the world until the end what do you do with all the New Testament promises of Christs return ?
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17 KJV
“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: and the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”
Genesis 5:3-5 KJV
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
2 Peter 3:8
a thousand years to you and I could be as a single day to God he isn’t within a timeline when he says “ I’m coming soon “ that could mean ten thousand years because he is speaking not from our perspective of time but his
he told Adam “in the day you eat the fruit you’ll surely die “ Adam lives nearly a thousand years
i think you should consider that what happened in 70 ad was about the conclusion of the ot prophets and then look at the New Testament prophecy as from those days forward until the end of the world
There is prophecy for that time and what happened and then also there is prophecy about the end of the earth and the day the lord returns to gather up his people.
thimk about the ot …how long was the promise for the messiah to come before he came ?
The New Testament promises the messiah will come also and every human eye will see it jew and gentile
i think you have a good view of the ot prophecies being fulfilled but what about all the New Testament prophecy foretelling the end of the world and Jesus returning from heaven ? That stuff is in there also
The ot gets us to the gospel and what happened to Jerusalem the nt is about beginning at Jerusalem and spreading through the world until the end what do you do with all the New Testament promises of Christs return ?
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Agreed. This will happen upon His return........
Zech 12:10~~
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech 12:10~~
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
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I have. So have many others. Profusely. You are a witness to it.
No such thing exists. As is evidenced by the content of @Cameron143 's posts.
No such thing exists. As is evidenced by the content of @Cameron143 's posts.
amen brother I’m figuring out more of what your saying nothing is literal in the book
“And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
Revelation 5:5-7 KJV
it’s revealing an understanding about Christ based on the word and what’s said beforehand
behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda,
Jesus is the lion of Judah foretold in genesis 49 who would be the lawgiver and ruler
the Root of David,
Jesus is called the root of Jesse the sin of David who would be king eternal
hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof
in the ot God said the vision and understanding he had given became like a book that was sealed that no one could read or look upon because of the blindness of thier hearts and minds because all had sinned and became corrupt
“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
this is not a literal lamb but a figure that’s conveying the understanding that Jesus was slain but yet lived and had sent the holy spirit into the earth
having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
this is showing that Jesus is given all the authority and vision and power and glory and honor he’s being annointed king like Daniel foresaw (Daniel 7:13-14 )
we should as bekievers know what an image of a lamb that appears slain but is alive and well and victorious means and that it’s not literally a lamb with seven eyes and horns
the entire book of revelation is this way the figures are found in other parts of the Bible
“And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
Revelation 5:5-7 KJV
it’s revealing an understanding about Christ based on the word and what’s said beforehand
behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda,
Jesus is the lion of Judah foretold in genesis 49 who would be the lawgiver and ruler
the Root of David,
Jesus is called the root of Jesse the sin of David who would be king eternal
hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof
in the ot God said the vision and understanding he had given became like a book that was sealed that no one could read or look upon because of the blindness of thier hearts and minds because all had sinned and became corrupt
“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
this is not a literal lamb but a figure that’s conveying the understanding that Jesus was slain but yet lived and had sent the holy spirit into the earth
having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
this is showing that Jesus is given all the authority and vision and power and glory and honor he’s being annointed king like Daniel foresaw (Daniel 7:13-14 )
we should as bekievers know what an image of a lamb that appears slain but is alive and well and victorious means and that it’s not literally a lamb with seven eyes and horns
the entire book of revelation is this way the figures are found in other parts of the Bible
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That's what I was meaning at the beginning of the thread about hearing a whole lot of different explanations from different people about all this (post #59 I think). When I was born my mother went to a Church of Christ and so I grew up in the thick of Amil./preterit type thinking. I spent about 18-20 years listening to the different preachers/deacons explain what one thing spiritually meant verses it being literal.
As I got older I would go to Bible School in the summers at a different Church of Christ where my grandparents lived and ask the preachers and deacons there about the same things I had ask at the Church in my home town. I didn't think to keep track of how many different preachers and deacons I ask the same questions over the years but somewhere around 50-75 came and went over the 18 years between the two different Churches. There was only the one pattern which was that certain convenient things were literal and others were conveniently not literal. I wasn't intentionally trying to trap them by asking them individually the same questions I was actually timid(shy of large groups) and so I would wait until they were by their self. I suppose it to be the very nature of taking an issue and trying to affixing an spiritual meaning to it in that none of them gave the same spiritual meanings to the Scriptures I ask about.
Eventually I thought to myself that I needed to just begin at Genesis 1:1 and read the whole Bible my own self so at about 17-18 I began and read it all the way across but now in my 80's I've lost track of how many times I've read it. I left the Church of Christ,(denomination) when I was about 20 and began to explore the other camps positions on the matter and so as I said I've heard just about every positions explanation. In the end I feel rather "outside the camps" that is in the four or so camp positions but if I was ask to describe mine own self I would say (pre) RCC-350-400ad(I'm not Catholic but instead premillennialism) so more like the 2nd and 3rd century ad Church saw prophecy. It to me all stems from the question at hand,,, why is near, at hand ect. literal and immediate and in the same Revelation we see the millennial,the Devil being loosed,final judgment ect. as encompassing thousands of years...
As I got older I would go to Bible School in the summers at a different Church of Christ where my grandparents lived and ask the preachers and deacons there about the same things I had ask at the Church in my home town. I didn't think to keep track of how many different preachers and deacons I ask the same questions over the years but somewhere around 50-75 came and went over the 18 years between the two different Churches. There was only the one pattern which was that certain convenient things were literal and others were conveniently not literal. I wasn't intentionally trying to trap them by asking them individually the same questions I was actually timid(shy of large groups) and so I would wait until they were by their self. I suppose it to be the very nature of taking an issue and trying to affixing an spiritual meaning to it in that none of them gave the same spiritual meanings to the Scriptures I ask about.
Eventually I thought to myself that I needed to just begin at Genesis 1:1 and read the whole Bible my own self so at about 17-18 I began and read it all the way across but now in my 80's I've lost track of how many times I've read it. I left the Church of Christ,(denomination) when I was about 20 and began to explore the other camps positions on the matter and so as I said I've heard just about every positions explanation. In the end I feel rather "outside the camps" that is in the four or so camp positions but if I was ask to describe mine own self I would say (pre) RCC-350-400ad(I'm not Catholic but instead premillennialism) so more like the 2nd and 3rd century ad Church saw prophecy. It to me all stems from the question at hand,,, why is near, at hand ect. literal and immediate and in the same Revelation we see the millennial,the Devil being loosed,final judgment ect. as encompassing thousands of years...
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How do you know about the events of 70AD ?
Because there is a historical record of it and the effects thereof of the Jews taken captives into the nations.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Cameron, you are an eyewitness that ever since the destruction of the temple, the Jews have yet to say of Jesus "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord".
Also, you are an eyewitness to millions of Jews still being in the nations, such that Matthew 24:30-31 is not yet fulfilled.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus has not come in the clouds with power and great glory that every eye will see Him, and the Jews have not been gathered by the angels back to the land of Israel.
Because there is a historical record of it and the effects thereof of the Jews taken captives into the nations.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Cameron, you are an eyewitness that ever since the destruction of the temple, the Jews have yet to say of Jesus "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord".
Also, you are an eyewitness to millions of Jews still being in the nations, such that Matthew 24:30-31 is not yet fulfilled.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus has not come in the clouds with power and great glory that every eye will see Him, and the Jews have not been gathered by the angels back to the land of Israel.
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[
How do you expect anyone to understand all this and then totally know what it means.
And then what exactly ?
If they don't there a heretic and now your expecting Cameron to picture Jesus as having seven horns
In heaven the lamb seven horns represents his perfect power and the seven eyes represents the holy spirits perfect vision
You have one major ego in this topic you really do
This topic is un- decided by every Christian there is and you want to make this topic something to accuse people of heresy with.
Or insult there intelligence with.
How many people believe they will be here for the great tribulation.
Or how many believe there's been loads of major rapture events already.
He's discussing his views in a topic that's open to interpretation.
Get over it. If his ideas are different to your.
I believe he's told many truths not lies,
Your still yet to say what exactly his heresy is.
And no doubt you won't.
Because you know your wrong right.
"
How do you expect anyone to understand all this and then totally know what it means.
And then what exactly ?
If they don't there a heretic and now your expecting Cameron to picture Jesus as having seven horns
In heaven the lamb seven horns represents his perfect power and the seven eyes represents the holy spirits perfect vision
You have one major ego in this topic you really do
This topic is un- decided by every Christian there is and you want to make this topic something to accuse people of heresy with.
Or insult there intelligence with.
How many people believe they will be here for the great tribulation.
Or how many believe there's been loads of major rapture events already.
He's discussing his views in a topic that's open to interpretation.
Get over it. If his ideas are different to your.
I believe he's told many truths not lies,
Your still yet to say what exactly his heresy is.
And no doubt you won't.
Because you know your wrong right.
"
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