TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!

[iamsoandso]

Prophesies come with time frames. There are clues to when it is that is being considered. At hand is never considered 2000 years in the future.

In post #444,pg. 23 you said about the Mill./1000 years you think that we are "in it" how can we be in it and it not encompass 2000 years at the same time?

 

[iamsoandso]

There are many judgments. There is one day of the Lord. The other judgments prefigure that day.
I don't believe the 1000 year reign is a literal 1000 years and believe we are presently in it.

2000 years later?

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 said:
Okay. So what event is so imminent and catastrophic that deals with Israel after 70 AD? Even others here who believe as you do on many things admit that 70 AD is partially in view.
And, what is God's purpose in writing Revelation?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The rapture is imminent. And the purpose of The Revelation is......
Revelation 1:1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

This is not about how long the edge or rope is.........It's about when the world falls off the edge or the rope. Everything happens FAST after that point.

I went back and read your post. And I apologize because you did say it was concerning things after the rapture. But that doesn't change your perspective.
The book of Revelation is not directly concerned about the rapture or what comes after, but it does deal with those topics. The book of Revelation is primarily concerned with the transition from one covenant to another, and what that means for Israel as a nation and the judgments that are looming as a result of not fulfilling the terms of the first covenant. What transpired in 70AD was the culmination of that judgment.
I know that's not what you believe. But I would be interested in your outline of the book if you have one.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I did not say The revelation was about the rapture. How did you get that idea?

I scratched my head on that one also (re: Cameron143's statement).





When John is called to "come up and I WILL SHOW you...," one of the first things he is shown is... the already-raptured Church (the "24 elders" wearing already-awarded "stephanous / crowns"--which Paul said he, and not him only, would be awarded "IN THAT DAY," not this present one, nor when he died--and who are saying "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..."); so the rapture HAS TAKEN PLACE by this point in the chronology being "SHOW[n]" to John in chpt 4.

The SEALS (i.e. "beginning of birth PANGS" including the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" which Paul said kicks-off "the Day of the Lord" [1Th5:1-3] is what will THEN unfold upon the earth, i.e. what we commonly call the 7-yr Tribulation Period, or 70th Week... the "in quickness [noun]" time period Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 speaks of);

So yes, the Rapture PRECEDES that future, specific, LIMITED "time-period" that leads up TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITES"--TO which the "guests [plural]" WILL HAVE been "HAVING BEEN INVITED" all throughout the Trib years)





Where Rev1:1 says, "[The] Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHOW UNTO...," this INCLUDES very definite "timing" matters, which He had NOT known the specifics of, during His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross (and Resurrection / Ascension)... but is NOW DISCLOSING

 

[Cameron143]

In post #444,pg. 23 you said about the Mill./1000 years you think that we are "in it" how can we be in it and it not encompass 2000 years at the same time?

Because I don't believe it's a literal 1000 years. I believe it represents an extended period of time.
The Bible says God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Do you believe that's a literal 1000 hills?
A third of the angels fell with Satan. Do you believe it was a literal third or a significant number fell?
There's more, but you get the point.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Cameron143 , every time in Scripture that a number is used with the word "years" ("_____ years"), it ALWAYS MEANS "that many YEARS"--the writer wants the reader to think/envision/picture: "[____ (that many)] YEARS"

 

[Kroogz]

I went back and read your post. And I apologize because you did say it was concerning things after the rapture. But that doesn't change your perspective.
The book of Revelation is not directly concerned about the rapture or what comes after, but it does deal with those topics. The book of Revelation is primarily concerned with the transition from one covenant to another, and what that means for Israel as a nation and the judgments that are looming as a result of not fulfilling the terms of the first covenant. What transpired in 70AD was the culmination of that judgment.
I know that's not what you believe. But I would be interested in your outline of the book if you have one.

I don't have a personal outline on my studies. TheDivineWaterMark is virtually verbatim from what I have concluded.......He is well advanced compared to me though!

 

[iamsoandso]

Because I don't believe it's a literal 1000 years. I believe it represents an extended period of time.
The Bible says God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Do you believe that's a literal 1000 hills?
A third of the angels fell with Satan. Do you believe it was a literal third or a significant number fell?
There's more, but you get the point.

What does an extended period of time mean in aspect to near,at hand ect. is it that in 2023 you even see your own self beholding the Revelation unfolding?

 

[Cameron143]

What does an extended period of time mean in aspect to near,at hand ect. is it that in 2023 you even see your own self beholding the Revelation unfolding?

No. I believe history is still in its infancy. I believe there is alot of history to unfold. I believe the majority of Revelation has occurred. At least the beginnings of it. I believe history at this point is the original intent of creation...the knowledge of the glory of the Lord filling the earth.

 

[iamsoandso]

No. I believe history is still in its infancy. I believe there is alot of history to unfold.

But do you see the Revelation of Christ in the midst of unfolding?

 

[Cameron143]

But do you see the Revelation of Christ in the midst of unfolding?

Yes and no. Yes I believe what was accomplished at the cross has done all that is necessary. But what has been accomplished will gradually grow greater in degree until it is fully so. For example, Daniel 9:24:
...70 weeks to finish the transgression...happened when the Jews crucified Jesus. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about filling the cup of wrath...Matthew 23...
...make an end of sins...made possible for believers who walk in the Spirit as well as making an offering once and for all time...pictures the results of the cross. This is still ongoing as sin hasn't been totally removed until the eternal estate...
...make reconciliation for iniquity...we do have peace with God, but all things haven't been redeemed yet...
...bring in everlasting righteousness...the perfect obedience of Christ accomplished this, but it is still being imputed...
...to seal the vision could mean its completion or make possible its unsealing as in Revelation 5 so it can be fulfilled...
...to anoint the Holy One...could mean a number of things but certainly refers to the exaltation of Christ...
So all at least begun and to culminate throughout history in their fulness. All to fulfill God's promise to fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD.

 

[douggg]

Verse 3 says at hand. Its relationship with verse 1 limits verse 1, not 1 limiting verse 3. The proof is verse 7. The only way for those who pierced Him to see Him is 1st century.

Jesus did not come in the clouds, with every eye seeing him in the first century.

Therefore, adjust your interpretation to who it is referring to in regards to them who pierced Him. It could be the Roman army, or it could be the Jews, in the end times - reflecting back to who were responsible for Jesus dying on the cross.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Sure. I have explained this earlier but I'll try again.
Who holds the keys to death and hell now? Revelation 1:18 Jesus says He does. Who had them before the resurrection?
So why aren't are there still some of the effects of sin and death still with us?

Let's look for a moment at how death began. God made Adam and Eve. He placed them in the garden with 1 rule, and told them that in the day they broke that rule they would surely die. They did break the rule, and they did both begin to die physically, and immediately they died spiritually. But Adam still lived beyond 900 years. As more people come into the world, sin increases and longevity decreases. By the time David comes into the world, life expectancy is 70 to 80 years...Psalm 90:10. During the first century it was still lower. Today it is in the 70's again.

Another line of thought...
In the beginning, God came and walked each day with Adam and Eve and spoke with them. After sin, God spoke sporadically to some in the OT. Then He began speaking through prophets. And eventually 400 years of silence until the advent of Christ.
Look at the layout of the temple. It had an outer court for Gentiles. Inside this was a court for Jewish women. Inside this was a court for Jewish men. Inside this is a court for the priests. And within this was the Holy of Holies where 1 man 1 time each year was allowed to go in and speak with God.

From the onset of sin to the advent of Christ, things were getting worse both physically and spiritually. People were dying progressively faster and God Himself was increasingly difficult for people to draw near.

Then Jesus comes. He dies and is resurrected. The veil is rent. He shows up with the keys to death and hell after announcing that He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Far from being hard to reach, all believers have been made priests and have direct access to the throne room of God. There's a new Sheriff in town.

But just as things didn't deteriorate over night, God has chosen to put things back as they were in very deliberate fashion. But make no mistake. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. And He is, and He will continue to do so. The effects of sin will eventually be reversed, and the kingdoms of this world will fully become the kingdoms of our God and Christ...Revelation 11:15.

The effects of sin weren't immediately known but increased over time. Why is it odd that the effects of the resurrection would do so as well?

beautiful thoughts buddy bud bud.

In away this is how everything pans out in any belief of tribulation be it post pre or mid

Does it make any difference really you know it doesn't right buddy 😊

The end result is the same right 👍

 

[Cameron143]

beautiful thoughts buddy bud bud.

In away this is how everything pans out in any belief of tribulation be it post pre or mid

Does it make any difference really you know it doesn't right buddy 😊

The end result is the same right 👍

Since you have been kind enough to give what I have shared a fair hearing, I'll share a couple more thoughts with you.

Things we know...
...the crucifixion was a first century event...
...the death and resurrection of Jesus ushered in a new covenant and paved the way for the old covenant to cease...
...the old covenant had within it stipulations for the failure of Israel to keep the covenant...
...Israel, in fact, failed under the terms of the covenant...
...the temple was utterly destroyed in the 1st century along with Jerusalem, and its inhabitants either were killed or fled...
...the end of the sacrificial system of the Jewish nation and the destruction of their house of worship and the loss of the presence of God represented a complete and utter change in their relationship with God that would have shaken Jews to their very core...
...the new covenant has 1 stipulation...belief...
...those who believe are under no condemnation...
...those who do not believe remain under condemnation and are judged on the last day and cast into the lake of fire...

Given these realities, which is more likely:
...God writes a message for the churches addressing the distant future, or...
...God writes a message to the churches to prepare them for events that will arrive soon?...

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus did not come in the clouds, with every eye seeing him in the first century.

Therefore, adjust your interpretation to who it is referring to in regards to them who pierced Him. It could be the Roman army, or it could be the Jews, in the end times - reflecting back to who were responsible for Jesus dying on the cross.

Actually, we are supposed to determine what we don't know by what we do know. I just posted...post #1234...what we do know. And when we look to scripture, we aren't to assume what hasn't happened and shape our belief, but accept what scripture tells us and use that to inform our understanding and reconcile our beliefs with what scripture says. You just asked me to ignore scripture in favor of a presumption on your part.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This passage in Lk (between vv.12-24a,b) are indeed speaking of the events surrounding 70ad.


But the part of your quote I put in BLUE ^ is not saying (something to the effect of) "these [70ad] days are when ALL THINGS HAVING BEEN PROPHESIED ARE [fully] FULFILLED."

Rather, it is more like... well, picture a factory assembly-line where peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are made.

First person places 2 slices of bread on the conveyor at 12:01p... the second person adds the peanut butter to one slice of the bread at 12:02p... the third person applies the jelly to the second slice of bread at 12:03p... the fourth person slaps the two halves together at 12:04p... the fifth person cuts the assembled sandwich in half at 12:05p... the sixth person wraps the cellophane around the sandwich at 12:06p (all this while, the conveyor belt is passing this thing along in front of each person who is assembling their part)... the seventh person lifts the wrapped sandwich off of the belt and packs it in the box to ship via Amazon delivery to my front door. ( )


What that portion of Lk21 is saying, is that, the BREAD HAS TO BE PUT ON THE CONVEYOR BELT "in order to fulfill ALL of" the sandwich order.

It's NOT saying that at "step one" that THIS WAS THE TOTAL FULFILLMENT of the [whole] order, just that it HAD TO TAKE PLACE *in order* for ALL to be fulfilled, NO PARTS LEFT OUT!


(Acts 3:21 confirms this explanation, which I've posted in the past in this thread)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Since you have been kind enough to give what I have shared a fair hearing, I'll share a couple more thoughts with you.

Things we know...
...the crucifixion was a first century event...
...the death and resurrection of Jesus ushered in a new covenant and paved the way for the old covenant to cease...
...the old covenant had within it stipulations for the failure of Israel to keep the covenant...
...Israel, in fact, failed under the terms of the covenant...
...the temple was utterly destroyed in the 1st century along with Jerusalem, and its inhabitants either were killed or fled...
...the end of the sacrificial system of the Jewish nation and the destruction of their house of worship and the loss of the presence of God represented a complete and utter change in their relationship with God that would have shaken Jews to their very core...
...the new covenant has 1 stipulation...belief...
...those who believe are under no condemnation...
...those who do not believe remain under condemnation and are judged on the last day and cast into the lake of fire...

Given these realities, which is more likely:
...God writes a message for the churches addressing the distant future, or...
...God writes a message to the churches to prepare them for events that will arrive soon?...

well according to the parable of the rich man and lazarus there where already people in a burning hell fire when Jesus arrived

My guess is after the cross a lot more went there for sure.

Because the cross is the ultimate Judgement for all people.

But a lot more people would also go to the sea of tranquility, both theses events are a rapture, because the soul is taken out of the body and put some where.

You would like to think that people in the hell fire should not burn longer than others,

but they must be because when Jesus spoke this reality of the rich man and lazarus, there where people there already.

So The fact is he'll is eternal and so is heaven. Unless God says otherwise.



You would like to think that those in the sea of tranquility should not be there longer than they need to be, but they are too.

The good news is those in the sea of tranquility will face life

The other good news is those in the hell fire will face death.

Now I do not want to be complacent, as in showing satisfaction with myself

But I'm in no way satisfied with the final outcome has been resolved but fully recognise your position that judgement has been passed to heaven or hell 😊 at the cross

 

[cv5]

I get your point. But I don't believe that's the proper perspective. That's why I asked you what you believed God's purpose was in writing the book of Revelation.

There you go again. Denying the correctly exegeted specific proof texts and word studies that wreck your eschatology, then shift to banal murky generalities the derail the train of logic that will lead to the truth.

Standard operating procedure.

® "Deny then misdirect." @Cameron143 ®

 

[douggg]

Actually, we are supposed to determine what we don't know by what we do know. I just posted...post #1234...what we do know. And when we look to scripture, we aren't to assume what hasn't happened and shape our belief, but accept what scripture tells us and use that to inform our understanding and reconcile our beliefs with what scripture says. You just asked me to ignore scripture in favor of a presumption on your part.

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Cameron, it is not an "assumption" that Jesus did not come with clouds, and every eye seeing him in the 1st century - but 100% fact that it did not happen.

And Jerusalem, the Jews, their temple made desolate (Matthew 23:38) have never said of Jesus, blessed is he comes in the name of the Lord.

So, adjust your interpretation of Revelation 1:7 to reflect the historical fact, and the scriptural fact, and the reality fact that the Jews' who's temple was made desolate in 70 AD have yet to say regarding Jesus - blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord.

 

[cv5]

Actually, we are supposed to determine what we don't know by what we do know.

Only if you do know something to start with. Which you don't.