TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!
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I apologize for missing this post of yours (Post #782, page 40), which you had addressed to me.
Yes, I've done a study of it.
In my Post #260 of this thread, I had written a small blurb about this section of Dan12 (vv.1-4), by saying:
"John 6:39,40 is speaking of two distinct matters which will be raised up "IN the LAST DAY" (not a "singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"--but the LAST MILLENIUM--the SEVENTH and LAST--what Hosea calls "IN the THIRD DAY" because factored from the time of His ascension, in that passage, referring to ISRAEL's "future"... same subject as Ezek37:12-14,20-23,26,28... and Dan12:1-3,4... and Isa26:13-21... and in Romans 11:15[,25]... etc... ALL of these passages LIKENING it to a "resurrection," but speaking of Israel coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED")] : "
[end quoting from that post]
Now, Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead; but Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to a bodily resurrection of formerly deceased persons (as many suppose), but rather corresponds with the passages I listed above (and perhaps others), where scripture is LIKENING Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations (where scattered), LIKENING that to a "resurrection" (see the passages I listed above, in their contexts).
So... in view of this ^ ... verse 4 (the verse you quoted, above) refers to what THEY (the "wise" of Israel, at that future time-period) will GO ON to DO ("turn many to righteousness"); Verse 10 says "the WISE will understand"... but "the wicked SHALL NOT understand" (in that future time-period being covered in this context).
I believe the "WISE" here corresponds to the "wise servants" and the "wise virgins" of the eschatological passages in the gospels, for example, in Matthew 24:42-51,45 parallel passage with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 (and where in this Lk12 passage it states in v.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" at that point) THEN "the meal [G347--i.e. the earthly MK age... this Grk word also used in Matt8:11 and its parallel]";
...and the Matt25:1-13 passage where it says, "and they that were ready [i.e. the "wise" virgins (not "the bride [singular]," mind you, who is not being spoken of in this passage)] went in with [G3326-accompanying] him to the wedding-feast/supper/festivities [i.e. the earthly MK age]"... and other related passages.
No one is "lifting off the earth" in these passages, and these folks are "still-living" saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (these passages are not speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," here, but of His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).
But like I said, Daniel 12:13 IS speaking of bodily resurrection ('to stand again'--on the earth); and v.12's "BLESSED" corresponds with about 7-8[?] other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same time-slot and circumstances, when "still-living" (mortal) saints will ENTER the earthly MK age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).
Hope that helps you see my perspective. Thank you for asking. =) Please let me know if anything I've put here needs further clarification.
I do believe it is a mistake to view Daniel 12:1-4 as a "physical resurrection from the dead" (whereas v.13 DOES refer to such).
Verse 4 is speaking of what they ('still-living' persons) go on TO DO (in that future time-period).
Yes, I've done a study of it.
In my Post #260 of this thread, I had written a small blurb about this section of Dan12 (vv.1-4), by saying:
"John 6:39,40 is speaking of two distinct matters which will be raised up "IN the LAST DAY" (not a "singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"--but the LAST MILLENIUM--the SEVENTH and LAST--what Hosea calls "IN the THIRD DAY" because factored from the time of His ascension, in that passage, referring to ISRAEL's "future"... same subject as Ezek37:12-14,20-23,26,28... and Dan12:1-3,4... and Isa26:13-21... and in Romans 11:15[,25]... etc... ALL of these passages LIKENING it to a "resurrection," but speaking of Israel coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED")] : "
[end quoting from that post]
Now, Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead; but Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to a bodily resurrection of formerly deceased persons (as many suppose), but rather corresponds with the passages I listed above (and perhaps others), where scripture is LIKENING Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations (where scattered), LIKENING that to a "resurrection" (see the passages I listed above, in their contexts).
So... in view of this ^ ... verse 4 (the verse you quoted, above) refers to what THEY (the "wise" of Israel, at that future time-period) will GO ON to DO ("turn many to righteousness"); Verse 10 says "the WISE will understand"... but "the wicked SHALL NOT understand" (in that future time-period being covered in this context).
I believe the "WISE" here corresponds to the "wise servants" and the "wise virgins" of the eschatological passages in the gospels, for example, in Matthew 24:42-51,45 parallel passage with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 (and where in this Lk12 passage it states in v.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" at that point) THEN "the meal [G347--i.e. the earthly MK age... this Grk word also used in Matt8:11 and its parallel]";
...and the Matt25:1-13 passage where it says, "and they that were ready [i.e. the "wise" virgins (not "the bride [singular]," mind you, who is not being spoken of in this passage)] went in with [G3326-accompanying] him to the wedding-feast/supper/festivities [i.e. the earthly MK age]"... and other related passages.
No one is "lifting off the earth" in these passages, and these folks are "still-living" saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (these passages are not speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," here, but of His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).
But like I said, Daniel 12:13 IS speaking of bodily resurrection ('to stand again'--on the earth); and v.12's "BLESSED" corresponds with about 7-8[?] other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same time-slot and circumstances, when "still-living" (mortal) saints will ENTER the earthly MK age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).
Hope that helps you see my perspective. Thank you for asking. =) Please let me know if anything I've put here needs further clarification.
I do believe it is a mistake to view Daniel 12:1-4 as a "physical resurrection from the dead" (whereas v.13 DOES refer to such).
Verse 4 is speaking of what they ('still-living' persons) go on TO DO (in that future time-period).
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Are you defining "the olive tree" as "the tribe of Israel"? It sounds as though this is what you mean.
I don't see "the olive tree" here to be defined as "the tribe of Israel," as though this is what Gentiles are "graffed in among them" to be... [it says, among "the natural branches"]... and so (according to your view, or at least how I'm reading you) becoming part of "the tribe of Israel"... ("them" being "the natural BRANCHES" rather than "the olive tree" itself, see).
Thoughts?
I don't see "the olive tree" here to be defined as "the tribe of Israel," as though this is what Gentiles are "graffed in among them" to be... [it says, among "the natural branches"]... and so (according to your view, or at least how I'm reading you) becoming part of "the tribe of Israel"... ("them" being "the natural BRANCHES" rather than "the olive tree" itself, see).
Thoughts?
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What we CAN define with certainty is Who the Root of the olive tree refers to.....
And I agree, Biblically, gentile believers are NEVER described as the stock of the sons of Jacob.
In other words, Israelites can be Christians, but Christians can NEVER be Israelites.
Isa 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 15:12
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
And I agree, Biblically, gentile believers are NEVER described as the stock of the sons of Jacob.
In other words, Israelites can be Christians, but Christians can NEVER be Israelites.
Isa 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 15:12
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
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Agree. @TheDivineWatermark is the best scholar on CC!
I have bookmarked many dozens of his fine posts. I suggest that you do the same.
I have bookmarked many dozens of his fine posts. I suggest that you do the same.
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There is no verse in either OT or NT that says the Temple (physical building) will be rebuilt a third time nor is there any verse that says a third temple (physical building) will be destroyed. What the NT does say repeatedly, and many times on this subject, is that the church is the temple and that Jesus will build His church.
However, there is a verse that says the tabernacle of David will be raised, and there are verses in both OT and NT that says the sanctuary will be defiled by the Antichrist (the sanctuary is the Holy of Holies, not to be confused with a Temple which could take 46 years to build). There are also verses that say the Priests will be making animal sacrifices and doing oblations, both of which will be stopped by the Antichrist during the tribulation.
We also know that Israel has sought out and found 5 red heifers certified by the priests and ready to be sacrificed this spring. That is a strong indication that they intend to begin animal sacrifices this spring.
However, there is a verse that says the tabernacle of David will be raised, and there are verses in both OT and NT that says the sanctuary will be defiled by the Antichrist (the sanctuary is the Holy of Holies, not to be confused with a Temple which could take 46 years to build). There are also verses that say the Priests will be making animal sacrifices and doing oblations, both of which will be stopped by the Antichrist during the tribulation.
We also know that Israel has sought out and found 5 red heifers certified by the priests and ready to be sacrificed this spring. That is a strong indication that they intend to begin animal sacrifices this spring.
Watching too much can Prophecy Club can addle the mind.....
Eze 41:1
Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.
Eze 41:4
So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
Eze 41:15
And he measured the length of the building over against the separate place which was behind it, and the galleries thereof on the one side and on the other side, an hundred cubits, with the inner temple, and the porches of the court;
Eze 41:20
From the ground unto above the door were cherubims and palm trees made, and on the wall of the temple.
Eze 41:21
The posts of the temple were squared, and the face of the sanctuary; the appearance of the one as the appearance of the other.
Eze 41:23
And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors.
Eze 41:25
And there were made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as were made upon the walls; and there were thick planks upon the face of the porch without.
Eze 42:8
For the length of the chambers that were in the utter court was fifty cubits: and, lo, before the temple were an hundred cubits.
Eze 41:1
Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.
Eze 41:4
So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
Eze 41:15
And he measured the length of the building over against the separate place which was behind it, and the galleries thereof on the one side and on the other side, an hundred cubits, with the inner temple, and the porches of the court;
Eze 41:20
From the ground unto above the door were cherubims and palm trees made, and on the wall of the temple.
Eze 41:21
The posts of the temple were squared, and the face of the sanctuary; the appearance of the one as the appearance of the other.
Eze 41:23
And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors.
Eze 41:25
And there were made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as were made upon the walls; and there were thick planks upon the face of the porch without.
Eze 42:8
For the length of the chambers that were in the utter court was fifty cubits: and, lo, before the temple were an hundred cubits.
As I reject yours, and your conclusion about mine. I see ALL of scripture back up the fact that there is a coming judgement on Jerusalem very specifically. From the time after the gap in-between the prophets and the fulfillment of prophesy, just as God said it would happen, John the Baptist says in Mat. 3.
3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight.’”
4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The first thing he does is tell THEM about the coming judgement. Them. Do a little research on this in the original language
"10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
The "ax is laid to the root" means the ax is in swing, that means it's almost biting into the wood already, not thousands of years away. Also he is asking THEM who warned THEM to flee. None of this at all makes sense under your view. Never mind our God telling those who asked Him, "when will ALL these things take place", and Jesus Himself says before THIS generation passes in Matthew 24. Please don't come here on a high horse with your nose in the air acting like you're the master of scripture. I'm telling you that you can NOT use exegesis to reach this pre-trib, future to us pop view at all. Only through eisegesis can it exist. This is not a matter of my opinion, this is a fact that only the willingly blind will dismiss. No one could take God word as it is, read it for the first time, and come to the futurist, pre-mill outlook. It's just not there without coming to the text with it. This is just true and why you need charts+ guru+ timelines in addition to the bible for it to even show up. Every word of scripture supports it happening as He said it would.
3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight.’”
4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The first thing he does is tell THEM about the coming judgement. Them. Do a little research on this in the original language
"10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
The "ax is laid to the root" means the ax is in swing, that means it's almost biting into the wood already, not thousands of years away. Also he is asking THEM who warned THEM to flee. None of this at all makes sense under your view. Never mind our God telling those who asked Him, "when will ALL these things take place", and Jesus Himself says before THIS generation passes in Matthew 24. Please don't come here on a high horse with your nose in the air acting like you're the master of scripture. I'm telling you that you can NOT use exegesis to reach this pre-trib, future to us pop view at all. Only through eisegesis can it exist. This is not a matter of my opinion, this is a fact that only the willingly blind will dismiss. No one could take God word as it is, read it for the first time, and come to the futurist, pre-mill outlook. It's just not there without coming to the text with it. This is just true and why you need charts+ guru+ timelines in addition to the bible for it to even show up. Every word of scripture supports it happening as He said it would.
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Israel COULD have received the Kingdom right then and there. But they rejected their King of course.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Yet their TEMPORARY rejection was all part of the fullness of Gods plan of salvation.
Rom 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Question:
Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Answer: not yet. But yet future at His Coming.
Act 1:7
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Yet their TEMPORARY rejection was all part of the fullness of Gods plan of salvation.
Rom 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Question:
Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Answer: not yet. But yet future at His Coming.
Act 1:7
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
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