Old-New (Part #1)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#1
My church home of 15 years has collapsed, literally and figuratively. It has fallen down. A once thriving church with 600-700 families in membership, perhaps the premier religious center of our community now sits empty and rotted, unfit for any human to enter. This happened very slowly, but then very quickly. The results of unfaithful leaders and a sleeping membership. “You will know them by their fruits.”

There remains a small remnant, maybe 50 souls still holding on to the dream. They purchased a much smaller abandoned old church at a different location, praying to renew what has been lost. I think they will fail and it breaks my heart.

Moving the church from one location to another and hiring a new pastor isn’t going to be enough. The remnant church has no young people. It’s going to take more than a move, yet they still do not listen to the voices all around.

At best, Christianity in the United States is in serious decline, we all know that. Americans who regularly attend a Christian church has fallen steadily for decades. The message is not resonating with the people as we rapidly join Europe making the church archaic and irrelevant.

It does not have to be this way. Our situation is not new. There is an old and proven answer to this dilemma if we can hear.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#2
Many years ago, a small group of people faced a similar, but much tougher challenge. They returned to a place of worship that had laid in ruins for 85 years. In their case, almost no one living had ever seen nor worshiped in their fallen building. Even worse, those living in the area were dead set against the rebuilding. The enemy was determined to use every resource available to drive the people back to where they had come.

Our little remnant faces no such opposition, but where to begin?

The people of old began by hearing the words of now little known and largely unread prophet of God, Haggai. Ever heard of him? He gave those people of old a very simple message from God; “Return to me and I will return to you.” This was their starting point; this was their mantra. It was the map that give them instruction and the basis for very single decision they had to make. In any question, this was the answer that guided their choices, return.

What lessons are here for us? Many, not just Haggai, not just a reference point, but a roadmap, a blueprint that we can rely on with Godly assurances.

Next: Ezra and Nehemiah
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#3
Ezra was a priest living in Persia, known for his great faith and wise teachings of the Law of Moses. He was also heartbroken. The Second temple in Jerusalem, completed nearly 50 years earlier had fallen into false worship. His mission in Jerusalem was to return true worship to the House of God.

But how? He faced opposition from all sides. God’s people had largely replaced true worship with man-made traditions and doctrines. God’s People had forgotten Torah, the priests no longer taught the truth and had turned away. They had become unfaithful to their covenant with God.

Ezra would not compromise his faith. He lived his faith in all he did and in him no hypocrisy could be found.

He began with no meeting, no committees, no public condemnation. Humbling himself before god; Ezra sat on the ground. A crowd gathered around him, curious and deeply unsettled. This wise and famous man of God, known everywhere for his wisdom and truth; sitting and crying with torn clothing? What can it mean?

On his knees Ezra prayed. He first confessed his own sins and his own guilt before God. He stated forcefully that he and his people had fallen into unfaithfulness. He accepted God’s righteous punishment for their evil deeds and acknowledged their unworthiness to stand in God’s presence.

A strange thing happened. The people who gathered around, first out of curiosity, began now to weep and to confess in repentance. A renewal had begun.

The first step in returning to God was facing the truth of their personal and collective sin. Remorse and repentance began the work of returning.

Next: Nehemiah the Governor of Judah
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#4
While Ezra continued to pursue true worship, Nehemiah arrived from Persia. Nehemiah was an experienced and skilled administrator, trained by the King. He had been appointed Governor with the task to strengthen Judah. The new temple in Jerusalem did not have the resources necessary to survive. Nehemiah was a skilled planner whose task was to correct that situation.

Nehemiah did not immediately jump into his assignment. He began by prayerfully assessing the scope of the problem, viewing it from all sides. He was persistent and single minded in his tasks. He planned with great care and adapted his strategies to changing circumstances.

His plans first and foremost included a commitment to all of God’s word. Nothing was undertaken that violated Torah. He understood Haggai and he took the prophet at this word.

Faithfulness to God was essential. While Nehemiah was Governor, Ezra remained Priest, each complimenting the other and staying in their respective “Lanes.” First, God’s Sabbat was reintroduced. Worship was reinstated, but now in the spirit of Torah. A finance plan was generated that addressed all levels of financial ability and ensuring essential tasks were completed. Anyone willing to participate were included regardless of circumstance. A plan was developed to repopulate Jerusalem, the most critical step to ensure future viability. Finally, God’s appointed feasts, which had fallen into disuse since the times of Joshua, were reestablished for the benefit of the people.

“Return to me and I will return to you.” While it took some time, true worship was re-established. God returned to his people.



Next: Final thoughts
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#5
This review is not intended to provide a step-by-step formula; it is the 50,000 foot view. It is the framework for the difficult task of “Returning to God” that has been provided to us by God.

People are hungry for truth, today as much as in 450-BC Jerusalem. People are tuning out the worn and broken traditions and looking for something real. From the fringe comes a hint, a whisper, the initial vibrations of change; “Return to God.”

We need to hold ourselves up to the light of God’s word and examine each and every assumption we have made. Why do we ignore so much? Is this the only way we can worship? Is this working to fulfill God’s plan? This may be a radical approach but we must know it is also the required approach.

Maintaining the Sabbath and keeping God’s ordained Holy Days are not optional. How to keep those requirements however, has never been dogmatic. God left most of the specifics up to us. The same is true for our “Assemblies.” These changes are not impossible nor do they require destroying what has been so carefully built. Some assemblies today have started down that lane. They are making significant progress to return to authentic worship. It is a growing movement that has even began to make headway even in the most resistant institutions. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are beginning to explore the roots of their faith.

Unfortunately for my home church there has been no change. A new Pastor and a new building with the same inflexible leadership may be sealing our fate. When things were unraveling, before the collapse, some believers called the church to self-examination and repentance. Those pleas were not heard. The same call is being made again today, with the same response. Without repentance everything else is futile.

“Return to me and I will return to you.” When we refuse, so does He.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#6
I think we are entering a new age, similar to the new age brought about by Luther and the printing press. This is the darkness before the dawn.

This age has to do with the glory and the power of God, as both new and old testament gives us. For 300 years after Christ, the gospel was powerful, then along came Constantine. He made major changes, such as teaching that Judaism was evil.

At that time the Jews were looked down on, all their ways mocked. The Lord used the wrong of Constantine's teaching for good. They accepted Christ and Christianity as a new religion that they would object to if they realized the truth of the God of the OT. This attitude is changing with events such as the holocaust and the finding of the Dead Sea Scroll. The teachings of the OT are being accepted by this new wave of Christianity as truth given through fleshly symbols, Christ gives the spirit of these truths.

There is new understanding that is powerful and is growing.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7
I think we are entering a new age, similar to the new age brought about by Luther and the printing press. This is the darkness before the dawn.

This age has to do with the glory and the power of God, as both new and old testament gives us. For 300 years after Christ, the gospel was powerful, then along came Constantine. He made major changes, such as teaching that Judaism was evil.

At that time the Jews were looked down on, all their ways mocked. The Lord used the wrong of Constantine's teaching for good. They accepted Christ and Christianity as a new religion that they would object to if they realized the truth of the God of the OT. This attitude is changing with events such as the holocaust and the finding of the Dead Sea Scroll. The teachings of the OT are being accepted by this new wave of Christianity as truth given through fleshly symbols, Christ gives the spirit of these truths.

There is new understanding that is powerful and is growing.
Wow...I did a double take. Someone with a positive outlook. Preach it brother.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,433
3,684
113
#8
A building is just a building; perhaps its collapse is a blessing in disguise. Just meet in homes or whatever with the faithful who remain.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#9
A building is just a building; perhaps its collapse is a blessing in disguise. Just meet in homes or whatever with the faithful who remain.
I agree, it is just a building. Your point is well taken.
 
Dec 3, 2023
440
77
28
#10
With all due respect, the problem facing Christianity now is that it has sent many wrong messages, which has caused people who don't know the Bible to feel bored with Christianity.If you don't even have faith, you feel that the message conveyed by the Christian community is problematic.Then this problem is very serious.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,433
3,684
113
#11
The main problem with organized religion for me personally is it has become way more complicated than it needs to be. The gospel of Christ is simple; organized religion has complicated it in a million ways.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#12
My church home of 15 years has collapsed, literally and figuratively. It has fallen down. A once thriving church with 600-700 families in membership, perhaps the premier religious center of our community now sits empty and rotted, unfit for any human to enter. This happened very slowly, but then very quickly. The results of unfaithful leaders and a sleeping membership. “You will know them by their fruits.”

There remains a small remnant, maybe 50 souls still holding on to the dream. They purchased a much smaller abandoned old church at a different location, praying to renew what has been lost. I think they will fail and it breaks my heart.

Moving the church from one location to another and hiring a new pastor isn’t going to be enough. The remnant church has no young people. It’s going to take more than a move, yet they still do not listen to the voices all around.

At best, Christianity in the United States is in serious decline, we all know that. Americans who regularly attend a Christian church has fallen steadily for decades. The message is not resonating with the people as we rapidly join Europe making the church archaic and irrelevant.

It does not have to be this way. Our situation is not new. There is an old and proven answer to this dilemma if we can hear.
First: I understand what your congregation experienced, and is still experiencing. I know of several congregations that have gone through, ae going through the same thing. Some congregations try the easiest response, and that is to turn into what attracts the "world." That being "feels good, broadway musical" worship services where the Gospel is replaced with whatever message pleases the masses and fills the seats. This, IMO, is an abomination of the Gospel and to God.

Why is this happening? Well, IMO, the simple answer is "Jesus said it would." Paul also spoke of this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Matthew 24:

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
980
113
#13
First: I understand what your congregation experienced, and is still experiencing. I know of several congregations that have gone through, ae going through the same thing. Some congregations try the easiest response, and that is to turn into what attracts the "world." That being "feels good, broadway musical" worship services where the Gospel is replaced with whatever message pleases the masses and fills the seats. This, IMO, is an abomination of the Gospel and to God.

Why is this happening? Well, IMO, the simple answer is "Jesus said it would." Paul also spoke of this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Matthew 24:

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
As sad as it may sound, it may be better if the church would embrace a false but worldly service. That would at least indicate a willingness to change and give some hope. As it is the leadership is rigid and believes a newer, less expensive building will solve their problems. In that there is little hope.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#14
As sad as it may sound, it may be better if the church would embrace a false but worldly service. That would at least indicate a willingness to change and give some hope. As it is the leadership is rigid and believes a newer, less expensive building will solve their problems. In that there is little hope.
What is needed is for sanctified believers to stand fast in their faith and preach/teach the Gospel of Jesus without bowing down to worldly desires just to fill seats.

There is a reason the path to salvation is NARROW.