The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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The only difference between faith in Christ and faith in the laptop to print what corresponds to the keys I press, is the object of that faith. If I give someone encouragement, I do not hand over to them a package of encouragement that they did notb previously have. I do and say things that arouse in their extant soul with its extant characteristics a will to persevere. in the object of that encouragement. If I give someone hope, I do not take a package of my hope and inject it into them. I do and say things that stir up the extant traits of their own soul to arouse a positive expectation in them regarding the future.
But when the bible speaks about giving faith, for some reason the normal meaning of "giving" non-physicals is physicalised to mean the injection of something foreign , or the handing over of some package extrinsic to the receiver. We should expect God to use human linguistic conventions when trying to communicate with human beings, and read biblical texts with the normal literal meaning unless that normal literal meaning doesn't make sense, and necessarily implies thst a figure of speech os instead intended.
We are made in God's image. We have all been given the attribute of faith, without which we could not function in the world. The gospel provides us with better objects of faith that have a more effectual result than many of the objects of faith that a fallen person usually chooses. Jesus told people He ministered to use the faith they already had. He did not tell them, nor ever imply that they needed a completely new kind of faith.
But when the bible speaks about giving faith, for some reason the normal meaning of "giving" non-physicals is physicalised to mean the injection of something foreign , or the handing over of some package extrinsic to the receiver. We should expect God to use human linguistic conventions when trying to communicate with human beings, and read biblical texts with the normal literal meaning unless that normal literal meaning doesn't make sense, and necessarily implies thst a figure of speech os instead intended.
We are made in God's image. We have all been given the attribute of faith, without which we could not function in the world. The gospel provides us with better objects of faith that have a more effectual result than many of the objects of faith that a fallen person usually chooses. Jesus told people He ministered to use the faith they already had. He did not tell them, nor ever imply that they needed a completely new kind of faith.
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It delivered us from this evil present world !
Gal 1:4
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
One of the purposes, end results of Christ dying for our sins, was to deliver us from this present evil world [ another way of expressing salvation] according to the will of God and Our Father !
This being delivered from the present world is a purposed result of the Will of God, in Christ giving Himself for our sins, this is so much so that if anyone for whom Christ gave Himself for their sins is not delivered from this present evil world, His death failed the Will and Purpose of God Our Father !
Many in false antichrist religion today would tell us that multitudes for whom Christ died shall yet be condemned with the world for their sins, remaining lost in unbelief ! Folks thats a antichrist teaching, its not of God !
All for whom The True Christ died, all of them shall be according to the Purpose and Will of God the Father, delivered from this present evil world !
John Gill writes:
Gal 1:4
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
One of the purposes, end results of Christ dying for our sins, was to deliver us from this present evil world [ another way of expressing salvation] according to the will of God and Our Father !
This being delivered from the present world is a purposed result of the Will of God, in Christ giving Himself for our sins, this is so much so that if anyone for whom Christ gave Himself for their sins is not delivered from this present evil world, His death failed the Will and Purpose of God Our Father !
Many in false antichrist religion today would tell us that multitudes for whom Christ died shall yet be condemned with the world for their sins, remaining lost in unbelief ! Folks thats a antichrist teaching, its not of God !
All for whom The True Christ died, all of them shall be according to the Purpose and Will of God the Father, delivered from this present evil world !
John Gill writes:
that he might deliver us from this present evil world; by which is meant, either the Jewish world, or church state, in which were a worldly sanctuary, and which were subject to ceremonies and traditions, called the elements and rudiments of the world; and who were possessed of worldly notions, and in expectation of a worldly kingdom to be set up by the Messiah; and both in principle and in practice were sadly degenerated, and were become very evil and wicked: or the present age and generation of men, whether of Jews or Gentiles, which was so corrupt, as the like was never known; or in general the present world, and the men of it, in distinction either from the world before the flood, as in 2 Peter 3:5 or rather from the new heavens and earth, which will be after the present ones, and wherein will dwell righteousness; or, in a word, from the world which is to come, as they are frequently opposed in Scripture: and which is said to be "evil", not with respect to the matter, that being all very good, as created by God; but with respect to the men of it, who lie in wickedness, under the power of the wicked one, and of their own sins; and to the things which are in it, all which are the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Now Christ gave himself a sacrifice for the sins of his people, that as in consequence of this they might be delivered and saved from the damning power, so from the governing power and influence of all that is evil in this present world; as from Satan, the god of it, who has usurped a power over it; from the lusts that are predominant in it; from the vain conversation of the men of it; from the general conflagration of it at the last day, and from the perdition of ungodly men, and their eternal destruction in hell: and all this is according to the will of God, and our Father, 45
You are right, but it only applies to those who are already born again, and the salvation=deliverance is not eternal deliverance. It is a deliverance, received here in earth, from non-fellowship with God, for the born again child of God.
When a born again child of God commits a sin they die=separate themselves, temporary, from their fellowship with God,(James 1:13-15), until they repent, because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on Jesus as he bore their sins on the cross for all of those that God gave him (John 10:26-29).
When a born again child of God commits a sin they die=separate themselves, temporary, from their fellowship with God,(James 1:13-15), until they repent, because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on Jesus as he bore their sins on the cross for all of those that God gave him (John 10:26-29).
Think I have to disagree with you on this one, ForestGreenCook. I do not believe any that action initiated or undertaken by
man, to have any efficacy in the spiritual realm whatsoever. As earthly, their purpose is to be demonstration of what has already occurred spiritually but not as being ends in themselves.
I do believe, however, that once a spiritual change occurs such as spiritual baptism (that being one of several names for it), that it will manifest and ripple itself throughout one's conduct and actions in the earthly realm in all manner of ways.
man, to have any efficacy in the spiritual realm whatsoever. As earthly, their purpose is to be demonstration of what has already occurred spiritually but not as being ends in themselves.
I do believe, however, that once a spiritual change occurs such as spiritual baptism (that being one of several names for it), that it will manifest and ripple itself throughout one's conduct and actions in the earthly realm in all manner of ways.
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Can you define "spiritual baptism"? Is it the same as being born again, as described in Eph 2:1-5?
I believe that the scriptures teach that any actions on the part of mankind to achieve eternal deliverance (salvation by works) is contrary to the doctrine of Jesus Christ. I do not want to take away the fact that baptism is a spiritual action, and a commandment of God.
Following God's commandments are the good works of his born again elect. These good works has nothing to do with our eternal inheritance, but they do have something to do with our fellowship with God, as we sojourn here on earth.
Baptism is one of these good works that delivers (saves) the born again elect as they live here on earth (1 Pet 3:21).
There is a salvation (deliverance) eternally, by God's grace, and there is a salvation that the born again elect receive here on earth by their good works in following God's commandments.
I believe that the scriptures teach that any actions on the part of mankind to achieve eternal deliverance (salvation by works) is contrary to the doctrine of Jesus Christ. I do not want to take away the fact that baptism is a spiritual action, and a commandment of God.
Following God's commandments are the good works of his born again elect. These good works has nothing to do with our eternal inheritance, but they do have something to do with our fellowship with God, as we sojourn here on earth.
Baptism is one of these good works that delivers (saves) the born again elect as they live here on earth (1 Pet 3:21).
There is a salvation (deliverance) eternally, by God's grace, and there is a salvation that the born again elect receive here on earth by their good works in following God's commandments.
Yes, I believe them the same. But when speaking of things spiritual, it can be difficult (for me at least), to distinguish where one starts and another ends -if they do start and end and are not all of one. Not sure if these will help - but a few quick ones:
[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[Act 1:5 KJV] 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[Act 11:16 KJV] 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I believe the best of the good works is in the sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ - far above any of the others.
I believe that good works must be borne of the spiritual and not of the earthly. And if of the spiritual, then the earthly are its manifestations, and therefore, after-effects and results, not cause.
[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[Act 1:5 KJV] 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[Act 11:16 KJV] 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I believe the best of the good works is in the sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ - far above any of the others.
I believe that good works must be borne of the spiritual and not of the earthly. And if of the spiritual, then the earthly are its manifestations, and therefore, after-effects and results, not cause.