What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?
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What do you mean by freedom? Certainly, Christ sets us free from the bondage of sin, and the consequences
thereof, that being death, or more precisely, the second death. People make choices all the time, but again,
this is a separate issue than/from "free will." A dead person does not choose to live, nor can they. While we
were yet dead in our trespasses and sins, God made us alive in Christ. God did that. We did not choose Him
while were hostile in our minds towards Him, a child of wrath, and His enemy. He draws us with loving kindness.
The laws of physics constrain our will, also. Try to will yourself into not having to eat or drink
or sleep ever again. No? Right. Your will is constrained by your biological imperatives, too. Man
is born into sin, is bound to sin, and is a slave to sin until set free.
thereof, that being death, or more precisely, the second death. People make choices all the time, but again,
this is a separate issue than/from "free will." A dead person does not choose to live, nor can they. While we
were yet dead in our trespasses and sins, God made us alive in Christ. God did that. We did not choose Him
while were hostile in our minds towards Him, a child of wrath, and His enemy. He draws us with loving kindness.
The laws of physics constrain our will, also. Try to will yourself into not having to eat or drink
or sleep ever again. No? Right. Your will is constrained by your biological imperatives, too. Man
is born into sin, is bound to sin, and is a slave to sin until set free.
@Magenta i just want to say that i have the same understanding of free-will as you do.
We don't have ultimate free-will, it's limited within the rules of creation that God has put in place.
If i were to put a percentage i would say that we maybe have 40% free-will. The scale is not to show accuracy, but to show that we don't have ultimate free-will.
God gives us choices to make in His creation within the rules of the creation.
Eat from the Tree or Life or eat from the Tree of Knowledge. That's where our free-will comes in and in everyday lives, in the choices that we make, within the rules of the creation.
In another topic though, you mentioned that Mary didn't really have a choice when the Angels appeared to her and gave her the good news.
I didn't agree with that because she could have chosen to say No, but the thing is, God already knew her nature so she couldn't say no, but the choice was hers ultimately.
What do you think about that?
We don't have ultimate free-will, it's limited within the rules of creation that God has put in place.
If i were to put a percentage i would say that we maybe have 40% free-will. The scale is not to show accuracy, but to show that we don't have ultimate free-will.
God gives us choices to make in His creation within the rules of the creation.
Eat from the Tree or Life or eat from the Tree of Knowledge. That's where our free-will comes in and in everyday lives, in the choices that we make, within the rules of the creation.
In another topic though, you mentioned that Mary didn't really have a choice when the Angels appeared to her and gave her the good news.
I didn't agree with that because she could have chosen to say No, but the thing is, God already knew her nature so she couldn't say no, but the choice was hers ultimately.
What do you think about that?
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Good morning, Eli .
. No, I did not say Mary did not have a choice when Gabriel gave her the news
concerning the birth of her first born, Jesus. You have a good grasp of my ideas around free will, but
you must have read whatever it was I was saying about Mary, wrong. She grew up in an environment
that was so very different from our modern-day life, I can hardly imagine it. Not just the lack of modern
conveniences, but the very strict religious laws that governed their way of life. I was raised in a fairly
strict home where religion was somewhat central, but I rebelled against it.
. No, I did not say Mary did not have a choice when Gabriel gave her the news concerning the birth of her first born, Jesus. You have a good grasp of my ideas around free will, but
you must have read whatever it was I was saying about Mary, wrong. She grew up in an environment
that was so very different from our modern-day life, I can hardly imagine it. Not just the lack of modern
conveniences, but the very strict religious laws that governed their way of life. I was raised in a fairly
strict home where religion was somewhat central, but I rebelled against it.
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Good morning, Eli .. No, I did not say Mary did not have a choice when Gabriel gave her the news
concerning the birth of her first born, Jesus. You have a good grasp of my ideas around free will, but
you must have read whatever it was I was saying about Mary, wrong. She grew up in an environment
that was so very different from our modern-day life, I can hardly imagine it. Not just the lack of modern
conveniences, but the very strict religious laws that governed their way of life. I was raised in a fairly
strict home where religion was somewhat central, but I rebelled against it.
. No, I did not say Mary did not have a choice when Gabriel gave her the news concerning the birth of her first born, Jesus. You have a good grasp of my ideas around free will, but
you must have read whatever it was I was saying about Mary, wrong. She grew up in an environment
that was so very different from our modern-day life, I can hardly imagine it. Not just the lack of modern
conveniences, but the very strict religious laws that governed their way of life. I was raised in a fairly
strict home where religion was somewhat central, but I rebelled against it.
Makes sense and it aligns with what you and i define free-will as.
Good morning to you as well and have a great weekend.
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He chose us first, just as He loved us first. Some say things that make it sound like faith is not required on our part, but I do not believe that. There is something paradoxical or dichotomous, maybe just mysterious, about the process involved, and that is behind many of these discussions of what happens when and in what order. He made us alive while we were dead in our sins... are we indwelt with the Holy Spirit then? Or does that happen upon belief/faith and we are then sealed until the day of redemption? At what point are our hearts circumcised? Can we believe or be moved to faith without this circumcision? You believe it is the faith of Christ that we have, and many disagree. Even though I believe faith is a gift, like a seed that is planted, and our inner life (heart/mind/spirit) is the environment that will either stifle or encourage that seed to grow, it is Christ Who lives in us, and without Him we can do nothing. Some say it is all of God as if nothing were required of us. There are such fine, sharp edges on these swords we swing around...
I rarely speak of it, but sometimes I think I know exactly when my heart was circumcised.
Other times, what I experienced in that moment remains a complete mystery to me.
I do know it was a turning point, and had very much and everything to do with God
while I was still running in defiance and rebellion away from Him.
I rarely speak of it, but sometimes I think I know exactly when my heart was circumcised.
Other times, what I experienced in that moment remains a complete mystery to me.
I do know it was a turning point, and had very much and everything to do with God
while I was still running in defiance and rebellion away from Him.
Ah, okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
Makes sense and it aligns with what you and i define free-will as.
Good morning to you as well and have a great weekend.
Makes sense and it aligns with what you and i define free-will as.
Good morning to you as well and have a great weekend.
not born in this place or that, and the answer is because no virgins can be found there.
A very different world we live in!
Have a lovely weekend, regardless .
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" (i.e. the angel of the LORD)
6And I (the Son) will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I (Jeremiah) will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us (Jeremiah and his people), and the great goodness toward the house of Israel (Jeremiah and his people), which he (the LORD) hath bestowed on them according to his (the LORD's) mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8For he (the LORD) said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he (the LORD) was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he (the LORD) was afflicted, and the angel of his (the LORD's) presence (the pre-incarnate Son was the angel of the LORD) saved them: in his (the LORD's) love and in his (the LORD's) pity he (the LORD) redeemed them; and he (the LORD) bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his (the LORD's) Holy Spirit: therefore he (the LORD) was turned to be their enemy, and he (the LORD) fought against them.
11Then he (the LORD) remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people (in the past vs. Jeremiah and his people now), saying to Himself Where is he (the LORD) that brought them (Moses and His people) up out of the sea, that led the people (of Moses) with the shepherd of [/B]his (the LORD's) flock (Hebrew Tso'NU : singular m/f gender; LXX )[/B] i.e. led them with the angel of the LORD, the pre-incarnate Son)? that put within it (B-QiRBBU: singular m/f gender, i.e. within the flock) his (the LORD's) holy Spirit ?
Note: Gen 30:35 uses B-KSaBiYM for "among the flock.
And the LXX has "He remembered the ancient days the one having brought up out of the land the shepherd of the sheep (TOn probatOn: plural neuter). Where is the one who placed in them (ev autois: neuter plural) the Holy Spirit?
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
So the Holy Spirit was put among the Israelites, to be present in their midst in the tabernacle, not in Moses.
6And I (the Son) will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I (Jeremiah) will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us (Jeremiah and his people), and the great goodness toward the house of Israel (Jeremiah and his people), which he (the LORD) hath bestowed on them according to his (the LORD's) mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8For he (the LORD) said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he (the LORD) was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he (the LORD) was afflicted, and the angel of his (the LORD's) presence (the pre-incarnate Son was the angel of the LORD) saved them: in his (the LORD's) love and in his (the LORD's) pity he (the LORD) redeemed them; and he (the LORD) bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his (the LORD's) Holy Spirit: therefore he (the LORD) was turned to be their enemy, and he (the LORD) fought against them.
11Then he (the LORD) remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people (in the past vs. Jeremiah and his people now), saying to Himself Where is he (the LORD) that brought them (Moses and His people) up out of the sea, that led the people (of Moses) with the shepherd of [/B]his (the LORD's) flock (Hebrew Tso'NU : singular m/f gender; LXX )[/B] i.e. led them with the angel of the LORD, the pre-incarnate Son)? that put within it (B-QiRBBU: singular m/f gender, i.e. within the flock) his (the LORD's) holy Spirit ?
Note: Gen 30:35 uses B-KSaBiYM for "among the flock.
And the LXX has "He remembered the ancient days the one having brought up out of the land the shepherd of the sheep (TOn probatOn: plural neuter). Where is the one who placed in them (ev autois: neuter plural) the Holy Spirit?
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
So the Holy Spirit was put among the Israelites, to be present in their midst in the tabernacle, not in Moses.
I agree that Israel is in view and not Moses. And it can and does carry with it the idea of being in their midst and upon and surrounding them. But this doesn't preclude the idea of dwelling in them. This idea comes from preconceived notions that because the OT doesn't explicitly express indwelling that it doesn't exist. But on what other truth do you accept the teaching of the OT alone? You don't.
The NT informs and expands upon existing truth. When Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was with them and will be in them, was He speaking of indwelling or degree?
In Job 42:5, Job says he had heard of the Lord by the hearing but now his eyes have seen. Did Job actually see God? Or had his experience led him to a deeper spiritual understanding and experience of God? Was God multiplied to him?
We would never say that NT saints weren't indwelled by the Spirit. Why? Because we have more information or because the NT teaches that it is part and parcel of salvation? Why would we assume less of the salvation of OT saints simply because the information came to us at a later date?
The NT informs and expands upon existing truth. When Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was with them and will be in them, was He speaking of indwelling or degree?
In Job 42:5, Job says he had heard of the Lord by the hearing but now his eyes have seen. Did Job actually see God? Or had his experience led him to a deeper spiritual understanding and experience of God? Was God multiplied to him?
We would never say that NT saints weren't indwelled by the Spirit. Why? Because we have more information or because the NT teaches that it is part and parcel of salvation? Why would we assume less of the salvation of OT saints simply because the information came to us at a later date?
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I believe that God would love it that all people are saved but he will never force anyone. I believe no one is born saved and that God loves everyone and that is why he gives us time and let's us think for ourselves. Anyone can say they are saved but only God knows our hearts. That's why every day I ask Jesus to help me to be more like him and less like myself. God is love and is so lovely he keeps given us more time 🥰
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the prophets ?
The Holy Spirit spoke to the people through chosen prophets and it often sounded like this in the latter parts of the promises of the prophets regarding Christ and the gospel to come later
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
Ezekiel 37:12-14 KJV
So this being foretold
“the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
“when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land”
Appx 7-800 years later
“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:50-53 KJV
remember the process ?
jesus is baptized receives Gods spirit preaches the gospel says as he takes his last breath “ father into thy hands I commit my spirit “ then he dies is raised afterwards and ascends Into heaven then we hear from Peter what happened when he ascended regarding his spirit
“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:32-33 KJV
The Holy Ghost is Jesus spirit the spirit of the son
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
what im saying is this couldn’t happen until Jesus the son was born came lived presched the gospel that makes the promise to believers regarding the spirit and then died raised up ascended to heaven and then kept the promises he made in the gospel promising to give them the spirit as he had received at baptism
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21-22 KJV
Then when he died
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46 KJV
He raises up and visits then over fourty days then ….
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
Acts 1:8-9
then of course pentocost they receive his spirit and Peter explains it
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33 KJV
They never had the promise that they would receive the spirit prophets chosen by God did for witnessing of him like they did but the people were never given the option to receive remission of their sins in Christs name or to receive his spirit the saints did later as we see then raised up as promised but they weren’t back then they had promises for when Jesus would come
“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.( the days of the gospel and church ) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
Acts 3
Preach the gospel to every creature whoever believes will be saved the only way to receive Jesus spirit in our heart is to believe the gospel.
The Holy Spirit spoke to the people through chosen prophets and it often sounded like this in the latter parts of the promises of the prophets regarding Christ and the gospel to come later
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
Ezekiel 37:12-14 KJV
So this being foretold
“the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
“when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land”
Appx 7-800 years later
“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:50-53 KJV
remember the process ?
jesus is baptized receives Gods spirit preaches the gospel says as he takes his last breath “ father into thy hands I commit my spirit “ then he dies is raised afterwards and ascends Into heaven then we hear from Peter what happened when he ascended regarding his spirit
“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:32-33 KJV
The Holy Ghost is Jesus spirit the spirit of the son
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
what im saying is this couldn’t happen until Jesus the son was born came lived presched the gospel that makes the promise to believers regarding the spirit and then died raised up ascended to heaven and then kept the promises he made in the gospel promising to give them the spirit as he had received at baptism
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21-22 KJV
Then when he died
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46 KJV
He raises up and visits then over fourty days then ….
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
Acts 1:8-9
then of course pentocost they receive his spirit and Peter explains it
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33 KJV
They never had the promise that they would receive the spirit prophets chosen by God did for witnessing of him like they did but the people were never given the option to receive remission of their sins in Christs name or to receive his spirit the saints did later as we see then raised up as promised but they weren’t back then they had promises for when Jesus would come
“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.( the days of the gospel and church ) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
Acts 3
Preach the gospel to every creature whoever believes will be saved the only way to receive Jesus spirit in our heart is to believe the gospel.
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Hey brother. I appreciate what you have shared. Do you believe salvation for OT saints differs from that of the NT saints?
Maybe some questions will help:
In the OT...
...was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?
...were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?
Maybe some questions will help:
In the OT...
...was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?
...were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?
