What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[Mem]

He already was saved, by which, he was given the Holy Spirit.

by your logic, the devil is saved, because he knows God exists.

 

[rogerg]

by your logic, the devil is saved, because he knows God exists.

Huh? I never came even close to saying that. Please repost exactly what I said.

 

[Kroogz]

It does say that belief is a work. The below verse clearly tells us that belief is both a work and that it is God's work alone
to accomplish within us. Anything that someone of themselves must to for salvation regardless of what it may be
makes it a work. If it is a requirement for salvation, then it is not only a work but also a law. But the Bible
clearly informs that no man can be saved by trying to achieve the works of law. Grace requires nothing but itself -
it is all encompassing.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You believe correct? How is your belief not boast worthy or meritless and another's belief is boast worthy and has merit?
or
Why is Gods choice of you for no apparent reason less boast worthy than God's choice of me for being a humble beggar?

 

[rogerg]

Rogerg, Thanks for your reply. I think that you believe, when the scriptures speak of people being sheep that it is speaking of the elect of God. If so, then who are they speaking of, when they speak of the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

I believe the term house of Israel and spiritual Israel, have come to represent the same entity, that being the Israel of God: spiritual Israel. God’s relationship to OT Israel was ended when it, as a nation, in the role of His wife, consisting of the earthly Jews and those non-Jews who joined Israel, spiritually fornicated with other gods, and therefore, was divorced by God after repeated warnings to them that He would do so, but which warnings they ignored. As a result of that divorce, all who are of the elect, but who have yet to be saved or born-again by God, are the lost sheep. Upon becoming saved, they will no longer be lost sheep, but will be of the sheep.

What is your interpretation of Zephaniah third chapter, especially verses 11-13, Who is being spoken of in verse 11 of those that have transgresses against God? Who is the remnant of Israel in verse 13 which do no iniquity?

All have transgressed God’s law of Christ, both the saved and the unsaved alike have. It is only through the forgiveness of transgression through God’s exceeding mercy and grace, manifested by Christ unto His elect, that brings salvation to them – but not by their righteousness. Before becoming saved/born-again and not yet having been justified by Christ’s righteousness, the elect, in God's eyes, are not one whit better, and some even worse, than the unsaved as we have all sinned that sin. The saved are saved only because of Christ’s choice of them for such, and of His imputing of His righteousness unto them – the righteousness which He brought forth – but not of themselves.
The remnant in verse 13, I believe, is speaking of those saved by God's grace alone. They do no iniquity, not because of themselves, but because of Christ.
As for verse 11, I believe, is speaking of the non-elect/unsaved/ who will never become justified by Christ, they are Chrisian pretenders whom God removes from the midst of the true congregation – the congregation of the firstborn: Christ.
Romans chapter 9 (below) and Eph 2:11 -13 demonstrates that it will be the saved who are translated by God into being the Israel of God, the house of Israel: in God’s eyes, they have now become Israel.

[Rom 9:24-26, 30-32 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. ...
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[Eph 2:11-13 KJV]
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

In trying to understand the scriptures, with the knowledge that they must all harmonize, I struggle with the question of who exactly does the elect of God encompass? Is spiritual Israel represented through Jacob who God changed his name to be called Israel? Rom 9:11).

If I understand your question correctly, spiritual Israel is a spiritual nation - the eternal, spiritual nation of Israel - the Israel of God. God has thus made them to become the true Israel.
The elect, I believe, consist of certain specific individuals - those, and only those, chosen by God from before the foundation of the world, to become saved. When they become saved, they join spiritual Israel and become true Jews.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Is the remnant a small part of spiritual Israel, or is the remnant of Israel the sum total of God's elect?

Sorry, ForestGreenCook, I’m not sure that I understand your question.
If you could include the verses that you have in mind, I might then be able to provide a better explanation.

 

[rogerg]

You believe correct? How is your belief not boast worthy or meritless and another's belief is boast worthy and has merit?
or
Why is Gods choice of you for no apparent reason less boast worthy than God's choice of me for being a humble beggar?

Because as the Bible so tells us that Christ is the Saviour and that man is not. Therefore, I do not boast of myself, but of Christ alone as Saviour. We are told that those who perform works of any kind for salvation, are not under God's grace but under His wrath. To believe that one's works can affect their salvation is to diminish the works of Christ who already has perfectly achieved all on behalf of those He saves. That He did so, means that those saved can do nothing else for it. Therefore, should anyone truly that believe they can complete it, or add to it, would mean that it has not yet been given to them.
What do you understand Christ as Saviour to mean?

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not everyone is Elect. Some folks have Free Will. This is why the Gospel is preached.

The inspired scriptures does not tell us how we are to be saved (delivered) eternally, but it does instruct the elect of God how they can be saved (delivered) from the destruction that sin brings upon them when they repent and God delivers them from the results of their sin. This kind of deliverance (salvation) is received here on earth for those who already have the promise of an eternal deliverance, and is given, by God, each time that they repent.

 

[PaulThomson]

God desires all people to be saved, but he doesn't save everyone. There must be a good reason, but he hasn't revealed it to us. Thus, it's a mystery that we can't solve.

He does actually give reasons. "I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks ...but ye were unwilling." He gave us freedom to choose what we will prioritise as our most wanted/willed. And many of us choose to put God and Jesus lower down the list than number one. A desire/will that is imposed upon us would not be a free will. God can't make everyone want to worship Him. He allowed his human and angelic creatures to kill Him without striking back with violence to save His own life, to prove to us His long-suffering, patience and love toward us all. Hearing this should be enough to draw a seeker of what is good towards a love for God and for Jesus in response. Those who choose to reject Jesus in favour of some other idol/s do not want/will to live in His holy and righteous kingdom.

 

[Kroogz]

Because as the Bible so tells us that Christ is the Saviour and that man is not. Therefore, I do not boast of myself, but of Christ alone as Saviour. We are told that those who perform works of any kind for salvation, are not under God's grace but under His wrath. To believe that one's works can affect their salvation is to diminish the works of Christ who already has perfectly achieved all on behalf of those He saves. That He did so, means that those saved can do nothing else for it. Therefore, should anyone truly that believe they can complete it, or add to it, would mean that it has not yet been given to them.
What do you understand Christ as Saviour to mean?

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Just curious though. You believe correct? How is your belief meritless and mine has merit?

 

[7thMoon]

Because as the Bible so tells us that Christ is the Saviour and that man is not. Therefore, I do not boast of myself, but of Christ alone as Saviour. We are told that those who perform works of any kind for salvation, are not under God's grace but under His wrath. To believe that one's works can affect their salvation is to diminish the works of Christ who already has perfectly achieved all on behalf of those He saves. That He did so, means that those saved can do nothing else for it. Therefore, should anyone truly that believe they can complete it, or add to it, would mean that it has not yet been given to them.
What do you understand Christ as Saviour to mean?

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Which means he gets rewarded without grace.

There were 2 saviors, BTW, God and Jesus. Men can be saviors by being firefighters, and physician; but to satisfy Jewish law, it is just God and Jesus.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe the term house of Israel and spiritual Israel, have come to represent the same entity, that being the Israel of God: spiritual Israel. God’s relationship to OT Israel was ended when it, as a nation, in the role of His wife, consisting of the earthly Jews and those non-Jews who joined Israel, spiritually fornicated with other gods, and therefore, was divorced by God after repeated warnings to them that He would do so, but which warnings they ignored. As a result of that divorce, all who are of the elect, but who have yet to be saved or born-again by God, are the lost sheep. Upon becoming saved, they will no longer be lost sheep, but will be of the sheep.



All have transgressed God’s law of Christ, both the saved and the unsaved alike have. It is only through the forgiveness of transgression through God’s exceeding mercy and grace, manifested by Christ unto His elect, that brings salvation to them – but not by their righteousness. Before becoming saved/born-again and not yet having been justified by Christ’s righteousness, the elect, in God's eyes, are not one whit better, and some even worse, than the unsaved as we have all sinned that sin. The saved are saved only because of Christ’s choice of them for such, and of His imputing of His righteousness unto them – the righteousness which He brought forth – but not of themselves.
The remnant in verse 13, I believe, is speaking of those saved by God's grace alone. They do no iniquity, not because of themselves, but because of Christ.
As for verse 11, I believe, is speaking of the non-elect/unsaved/ who will never become justified by Christ, they are Chrisian pretenders whom God removes from the midst of the true congregation – the congregation of the firstborn: Christ.
Romans chapter 9 (below) and Eph 2:11 -13 demonstrates that it will be the saved who are translated by God into being the Israel of God, the house of Israel: in God’s eyes, they have now become Israel.

[Rom 9:24-26, 30-32 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. ...
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[Eph 2:11-13 KJV]
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



If I understand your question correctly, spiritual Israel is a spiritual nation - the eternal, spiritual nation of Israel - the Israel of God. God has thus made them to become the true Israel.
The elect, I believe, consist of certain specific individuals - those, and only those, chosen by God from before the foundation of the world, to become saved. When they become saved, they join spiritual Israel and become true Jews.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



Sorry, ForestGreenCook, I’m not sure that I understand your question.
If you could include the verses that you have in mind, I might then be able to provide a better explanation.

Micah chapter 5:7 mentions "the remnant of Jacob". If Jacob, whose name has been changed by God to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, and Jacob/Israel represents the spiritual Israel, then should not the remnant of Jacob be a small part of Jacob/Israel?

Would not the sum total of the elect of God be both Jacob/spiritual Israel and the remnant of Jacob?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe the term house of Israel and spiritual Israel, have come to represent the same entity, that being the Israel of God: spiritual Israel. God’s relationship to OT Israel was ended when it, as a nation, in the role of His wife, consisting of the earthly Jews and those non-Jews who joined Israel, spiritually fornicated with other gods, and therefore, was divorced by God after repeated warnings to them that He would do so, but which warnings they ignored. As a result of that divorce, all who are of the elect, but who have yet to be saved or born-again by God, are the lost sheep. Upon becoming saved, they will no longer be lost sheep, but will be of the sheep.



All have transgressed God’s law of Christ, both the saved and the unsaved alike have. It is only through the forgiveness of transgression through God’s exceeding mercy and grace, manifested by Christ unto His elect, that brings salvation to them – but not by their righteousness. Before becoming saved/born-again and not yet having been justified by Christ’s righteousness, the elect, in God's eyes, are not one whit better, and some even worse, than the unsaved as we have all sinned that sin. The saved are saved only because of Christ’s choice of them for such, and of His imputing of His righteousness unto them – the righteousness which He brought forth – but not of themselves.
The remnant in verse 13, I believe, is speaking of those saved by God's grace alone. They do no iniquity, not because of themselves, but because of Christ.
As for verse 11, I believe, is speaking of the non-elect/unsaved/ who will never become justified by Christ, they are Chrisian pretenders whom God removes from the midst of the true congregation – the congregation of the firstborn: Christ.
Romans chapter 9 (below) and Eph 2:11 -13 demonstrates that it will be the saved who are translated by God into being the Israel of God, the house of Israel: in God’s eyes, they have now become Israel.

[Rom 9:24-26, 30-32 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. ...
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[Eph 2:11-13 KJV]
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



If I understand your question correctly, spiritual Israel is a spiritual nation - the eternal, spiritual nation of Israel - the Israel of God. God has thus made them to become the true Israel.
The elect, I believe, consist of certain specific individuals - those, and only those, chosen by God from before the foundation of the world, to become saved. When they become saved, they join spiritual Israel and become true Jews.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



Sorry, ForestGreenCook, I’m not sure that I understand your question.
If you could include the verses that you have in mind, I might then be able to provide a better explanation.

I am not familiar wit the scriptures pertaining to God divorced his bride. Can you supply some scripture proclaiming that and give further explanation?

 

[rogerg]

Just curious though. You believe correct? How is your belief meritless and mine has merit?

Your post makes no sense to me.

 

[rogerg]

I am not familiar wit the scriptures pertaining to God divorced his bride. Can you supply some scripture proclaiming that and give further explanation?

As God's wife, earthly Israel was to maintain spiritually purity in being faithful to Him, which they were not, and which resulted in that God divorced them (Jer 3:8). Further in the chapter, oddly enough, we see that God remarried Israel, but He did so with a different Israel - spiritual Israel. We see this because God declared that He would take "one from a city and two from a family" and that He would be the one to " bring you to Zion" (or Sion). In other words, Israel would no longer be comprised of Jews en-masse as they had been in the first marriage, but instead, taken out of all people which would be brought individually to spiritual Israel (Zion or Sion) as the elect. God could not remarry the first Israel because it would be against His law for Him to do so

[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

[Jer 3:14 KJV] 14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

[Deu 24:1-4 KJV]
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's [wife].
3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

[Heb 12:22 KJV]
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[Kroogz]

Your post makes no sense to me.

I had faith in Christ, thus He saved me. Acts 16:31

You were saved for no apparent reason then had faith.

How is our faith different?

 

[rogerg]

I had faith in Christ, thus He saved me. Acts 16:31

You were saved for no apparent reason then had faith.

How is our faith different?

Then your supposed salvation was by your work, and your trust in law, by which, can no one become saved. Mine was by grace - though completely undeserved, yet a gift from an exceedingly gracious and merciful God, with no prerequisites whatsoever attached to it.
The value of salvation is attested to by the fact that God alone imparts it as a free gift directly and exclusively from Him, which no one of themselves, can acquire nor deserve no matter what they might try do to get it.

 

[rogerg]

How is our faith different?

You believe salvation is caused by your faith; I believe that faith comes from salvation as one of salvation's byproducts.
Big difference between the two.

 

[Kroogz]

You believe salvation is caused by your faith; I believe that faith comes from salvation as one of salvation's byproducts.
Big difference between the two.

Which brings me back to my original question.

Why is your faith meritless, but mine has merit.

If God saved you for no apparent reason and then you had faith and God saved me because I had faith in Him.

How is your faith meritless/without boasting and mine has merit/boastful?

 

[Mem]

Huh? I never came even close to saying that. Please repost exactly what I said.

According to your belief (as I understand it), is it is up to a person to produce their own saving faith and not receive it solely as a gift from God- that being what you consider free-will. If that is what you think, then how does someone give to themselves saving faith without first having a true knowledge of salvation upon which that faith would have to be built, which knowledge, according to Luke 1:77, can only come from salvation,

you don't understand my belief. You say I believe that "it is up to a person to produce their own saving faith and not receive it solely as a gift from God..."

But scripture says that each of us is given a measure of faith that we do not as much receive as we do offer it to God.

 

[Mem]

What we receive is His word as truth, even if we haven't 'seen' it yet. We "hear" it. And that is offering our faith, that was given to each of us in one measure or another, a measure that only grows once we offer it. And it would seem to me that faith and love would work similarly, as both come first from God. That is, the more you give of it, the more you get.

 

[rogerg]

What we receive is His word as truth, even if we haven't 'seen' it yet. We "hear" it. And that is offering our faith, that was given to each of us in one measure or another, a measure that only grows once we offer it. And it would seem to me that faith and love would work similarly, as both come first from God. That is, the more you give of it, the more you get.

Not possible until saved/born-again. Unsaved (natural man) is oblivious to things spiritual. Please read carefully, especially v14 below.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The "measure" spoken of in the Bible is an ability to measure/assess the faith of Christ - that His faith brought salvation, which ability, is given only to those saved. It does not mean that everyone is given a measure of faith - as in everyone is given some faith - they are not.