The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

[posthuman]

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. Paul does not contradict himself here.

nonsense. that's contradictory.

where there is no law, there is no transgression -- so if you define sin as strictly transgression of law, then you cannot have sin without law: but scripture is clear that sin existed before law.

therefore there is sin apart from law, and law is not eternally existent, but as scripture says, was "added" because of sin, "to make sin more sinful"

"the law is not for the righteous but for the lawless & disobedient" -- where there is no sin, there is no law added.
but which comes first, righteousness or wickedness? God is before all things, and He is righteous, and in Him is no sin.
therefore righteousness precedes law, and law does not come about until sin, and sin exists before law.

insisting that the righteous are under law is contrary to the worldview of scripture, and mankind only seek to do it so that they can impose cords on those God has made free.

 

[posthuman]

Wouldn't that be hell that serves this purpose?

"the last enemy to be destroyed is death"

 

[Cameron143]

"the last enemy to be destroyed is death"

For the believer. Jesus already has the keys to death and hell. Now it's just a matter of when.

 

[posthuman]

For the believer. Jesus already has the keys to death and hell. Now it's just a matter of when.

"all good things in all good time"

 

[posthuman]

which happened first?

• Satan falls
• the tree of knowledge of good from evil is placed in the garden

 

[posthuman]

OK here's an easier one:

which happened first?

• the tree of knowledge of good from evil is placed in the garden
• Adam is told not to eat of it

 

[SabbathBlessing]

nonsense. that's contradictory.


where there is no law, there is no transgression -- so if you define sin as strictly transgression of law, then you cannot have sin without law: but scripture is clear that sin existed before law.

therefore there is sin apart from law, and law is not eternally existent, but as scripture says, was "added" because of sin, "to make sin more sinful"

"the law is not for the righteous but for the lawless & disobedient" -- where there is no sin, there is no law added.
but which comes first, righteousness or wickedness? God is before all things, and He is righteous, and in Him is no sin.
therefore righteousness precedes law, and law does not come about until sin, and sin exists before law.

insisting that the righteous are under law is contrary to the worldview of scripture, and mankind only seek to do it so that they can impose cords on those God has made free.

Not contradictory scripture. Romans 4:15 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20

How to reconcile the law is not made for the righteous person

1 Tim 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Paul does...

Romans 6:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

God's does not change nor does His Truth and Righteousness change.


Psa 119:712 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.

Psa 119:151 You are near, O Lord,
And all Your commandments are truth.

Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

There are not two standards- if we are in Christ and walking in obedience to Him and His commandments John 14:15-18 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-9 Mat 19:17-19 allowing the Spirit to work in our lives and lead us to His Truth and His righteousness one is not an enmity to God's law Romans 8:7-8

Revelation 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

"the law is not for the righteous but for the lawless & disobedient" -- where there is no sin, there is no law added.
but which comes first, righteousness or wickedness? God is before all things, and He is righteous, and in Him is no sin.
therefore righteousness precedes law, and law does not come about until sin, and sin exists before law.

insisting that the righteous are under law is contrary to the worldview of scripture, and mankind only seek to do it so that they can impose cords on those God has made free.

What you are saying is the opposite of what the scripture says.
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Who deems someone righteous? God or man. So it would be pretty presumptuous to say we are sinless and therefore the law is not meant for me but for the "other people.

The Ten Commandments are there so we can see our sins. Romans 3:20 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

We are not judged based on our standard, we are judged based on God's. James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 Ecc 12:13-14

 

[Cameron143]

What you are saying is the opposite of what the scripture says.
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Who deems someone righteous? God or man. So it would be pretty presumptuous to say we are sinless and therefore the law is not meant for me but for the "other people.

The Ten Commandments are there so we can see our sins. Romans 3:20 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

We are not judged based on our standard, we are judged based on God's. James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 Ecc 12:13-14

We have already been judged to be righteous. God's standard has been met by Christ. Those in Him can only be viewed by God as righteous.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

We have already been judged to be righteous. God's standard has been met by Christ. Those in Him can only be viewed by God as righteous.

We are judged the last day John 12:48 which has not happened and only Jesus judges, we do not judge ourselves and our righteous is not the same as God's righteousness.

Many believe they do not have to keep any law or do anything and will be saved, but Jesus in His own Words says that's not so.

Many believers will be surprised by this as Jesus states...

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord (believers) ,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So this teaching we can be without law and be saved in our sins, is something Jesus rebukes. We are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and when Jesus truly changes us from the inside out we want to obey Him though faith and love. John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31 Rev 22:14 and this faith leads us back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

 

[Cameron143]

We are judged the last day John 12:48 which has not happened and only Jesus judges, we do not judge ourselves and our righteous is not the same as God's righteousness.

Many believe they do not have to keep any law or do anything and will be saved, but Jesus in His own Words says that's not so.

Many believers will be surprised by this as Jesus states...

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord (believers) ,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So this teaching we can be without law and be saved in our sins, is something Jesus rebukes. We are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and when Jesus truly changes us from the inside out we want to obey Him though faith and love. John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31 Rev 22:14 and this faith leads us back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

God has already declared us righteous if we are in Christ. Believers will have their works judged, but only as far as rewards are determined. There is no longer condemnation after genuine belief...John 3:16-18, Romans 8:1.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

God has already declared us righteous if we are in Christ. Believers will have their works judged, but only as far as rewards are determined. There is no longer condemnation after genuine belief...John 3:16-18, Romans 8:1.

Those who are in Christ are not an enmity to His law Romans 8:1-8. I think it would be up to Christ who is in Him and not us. Jesus said many believers will not be in His kingdom because they did not do the will of God and were lawless (without law). Jesus taught whoever breaks or teaches others to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten, would be least in heaven Mat 5:19-30, which I do not believe that means one will be there if you read the very next verse Mat 5:20. While it sounds good that we can do our will and be saved, its not the reality of it according to Jesus.

Many misunderstand that our righteousness is part from the law, which would allow one to save ourselves, our righteous only comes from Christ but we are saved by grace through faith. Those who have faith uphold the law of God Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 because how do you have faith in Jesus but not faith to believe and do what He taught. James 1:22

 

[SabbathBlessing]

God has already declared us righteous if we are in Christ. Believers will have their works judged, but only as far as rewards are determined. There is no longer condemnation after genuine belief...John 3:16-18, Romans 8:1.

I would consider reading further in John 3 and Romans 8

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Here they make the clear distinction that believing in Jesus is related to our obedience to Him. Those who choose to do evil (sin) does not come to the light because their deeds are evil, but we are called to come to the truth (light) so our deeds can be exposed. This is what the Ten Commandments does- it shows us our sin just like a mirror. When we bury our sins (stay in darkness) we don't confess or forsake them and therefore God can't give us His mercy and grace and give us the power to help overcome. Proverbs 28:13 Those who seek God want to come to the Truth so Jesus can help us overcome our sins. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin.

Jesus in His own Words tells us that it's more than just believing...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord [believer],’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Believing is a great first step but as our love for Jesus grows, we should want to obey Him through faith and love. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Romans 8 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh (sin) but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh (sin) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.

 

[Cameron143]

Those who are in Christ are not an enmity to His law Romans 8:1-8. I think it would be up to Christ who is in Him and not us. Jesus said many believers will not be in His kingdom because they did not do the will of God and were lawless (without law). Jesus taught whoever breaks or teaches others to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten, would be least in heaven Mat 5:19-30, which I do not believe that means one will be there if you read the very next verse Mat 5:20. While it sounds good that we can do our will and be saved, its not the reality of it according to Jesus.

Many misunderstand that our righteousness is part from the law, which would allow one to save ourselves, our righteous only comes from Christ but we are saved by grace through faith. Those who have faith uphold the law of God Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 because how do you have faith in Jesus but not faith to believe and do what He taught. James 1:22

You are simply backloading works into salvation. It's not a question about keeping the law. Every true believer makes a practice of keeping the commandments. The question is: is it evidence of salvation or necessary to maintain salvation?
The answer to this question tells whether you believe salvation is of grace or not. You do not. You make yourself responsible for maintaining your salvation. Jesus, in your case, is only the author of your faith, but not the finisher of your faith. Good luck trying to perfect your faith. No one else ever has. I'd root for you in this except that would mean I'm rooting for your destruction.

 

[Cameron143]

I would consider reading further in John 3 and Romans 8

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Here they make the clear distinction that believing in Jesus is related to our obedience to Him. Those who choose to do evil (sin) does not come to the light because their deeds are evil, but we are called to come to the truth (light) so our deeds can be exposed. This is what the Ten Commandments does- it shows us our sin just like a mirror. When we bury our sins (stay in darkness) we don't confess or forsake them and therefore God can't give us His mercy and grace and give us the power to help overcome. Proverbs 28:13 Those who seek God want to come to the Truth so Jesus can help us overcome our sins. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin.

Jesus in His own Words tells us that it's more than just believing...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord [believer],’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Believing is a great first step but as our love for Jesus grows, we should want to obey Him through faith and love. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Romans 8 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh (sin) but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh (sin) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.

Should have stopped at 3:18...he who believes in Him is not condemned...simply believe. Anything else you add as a condition, and not as an evidence, adds to scripture.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Should have stopped at 3:18...he who believes in Him is not condemned...simply believe. Anything else you add as a condition, and not as an evidence, adds to scripture.

I did not add it, its the Word of God. Belief and obedience are interchangeable in scripture as shown through this passage and many others. There are blesses and curses in scripture stopping at the blessing to not understand the conditions doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but we have free will. Jesus tells us the outcome upfront and the conditions, so not sure how we can believe in Jesus but not what He teaches.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You are simply backloading works into salvation. It's not a question about keeping the law. Every true believer makes a practice of keeping the commandments. The question is: is it evidence of salvation or necessary to maintain salvation?
The answer to this question tells whether you believe salvation is of grace or not. You do not. You make yourself responsible for maintaining your salvation. Jesus, in your case, is only the author of your faith, but not the finisher of your faith. Good luck trying to perfect your faith. No one else ever has. I'd root for you in this except that would mean I'm rooting for your destruction.

Keeping the law is not to be saved, its a consequence because one is saved. No one is saved by the law because all has sinned, we are saved by the grace of Jesus though faith. Scripture shows us what true faith looks like. Romans 3:31 Romans 6:16 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

 

[Cameron143]

I did not add it, its the Word of God. There are blesses and curses in scripture stopping at the blessing to not understand the conditions doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but we have free will. Jesus tells us the outcome upfront and the conditions, so not sure how we can believe in Jesus but not what He teaches.

Blessings and cursings are part of the old covenant, not the new. The new covenant only requires faith. No other conditions. The reason you don't acknowledge the above is because you are mixing up 2 different covenants.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Blessings and cursings are part of the old covenant, not the new. The new covenant only requires faith. No other conditions. The reason you don't acknowledge the above is because you are mixing up 2 different covenants.

What is the curse when someone doesn't have faith?

Not everyone who says Lord Lord will be saved according to Jesus. Jesus taught us everything we need for salvation and through faith we should not only believe what He teaches but have enough faith to do what He teaches. James 1:22

Not mixing up two covenants- same law, different application kept until the end of time by God's faithful. Revelation 22:14-15

 

[Cameron143]

Keeping the law is not to be saved, its a consequence because one is saved. No one is saved by the law because all has sinned, we are saved by the grace of Jesus though faith. Scripture shows us what true faith looks like. Romans 3:31 Romans 6:16 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

I don't think you genuinely believe this. If you did, you wouldn't believe someone can lose their salvation. You would believe that someone who turned away from the faith never truly believed.