Did God occupy any space before creation?
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Where? Does the Hebrew and Greek really say that? Have you looked at the Hebrew and Greek?
I was hoping for some open-hearted consideration and discussion of what scripture actually says. By edifying do you perhaps mean you were hoping for some ear tickling?
Why not apply reason to actual biblical texts, instead of merely recitng received dogma?
I was hoping for some open-hearted consideration and discussion of what scripture actually says. By edifying do you perhaps mean you were hoping for some ear tickling?
Why not apply reason to actual biblical texts, instead of merely recitng received dogma?
Without beginning and without end is the very definition of timelessness.
And it doesn't mean that God can't enter into time and space. It means He doesn't exist within it.
Time was part of creation and given to man as a grace as well as a means of recording events. Can you imagine how much trouble @Gojira would get into if God had made days longer?
And it doesn't mean that God can't enter into time and space. It means He doesn't exist within it.
Time was part of creation and given to man as a grace as well as a means of recording events. Can you imagine how much trouble @Gojira would get into if God had made days longer?
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Actually, it's not. "Without beginning, without middle and without end" would be timelessness.
Does the bible mention God not having a past or a present? It talks about God as though He does have a past and a present. Has Jesus always been a man seated at the Father's right hand, or was there a time in the Father's existence where the Son was not a man? Is Jesus forever being born, being betrayed, being nailed to the cross, being raised and ascending to heaven in God's experience? No passage in the Bible makes a claim that God does not experience time.
Does the bible mention God not having a past or a present? It talks about God as though He does have a past and a present. Has Jesus always been a man seated at the Father's right hand, or was there a time in the Father's existence where the Son was not a man? Is Jesus forever being born, being betrayed, being nailed to the cross, being raised and ascending to heaven in God's experience? No passage in the Bible makes a claim that God does not experience time.
Actually, it's not. "Without beginning, without middle and without end" would be timelessness.
Does the bible mention God not having a past or a present? It talks about God as though He does have a past and a present. Has Jesus always been a man seated at the Father's right hand, or was there a time in the Father's existence where the Son was not a man? Is Jesus forever being born, being betrayed, being nailed to the cross, being raised and ascending to heaven in God's experience? No passage in the Bible makes a claim that God does not experience time.
Infinite hours.
Does the bible mention God not having a past or a present? It talks about God as though He does have a past and a present. Has Jesus always been a man seated at the Father's right hand, or was there a time in the Father's existence where the Son was not a man? Is Jesus forever being born, being betrayed, being nailed to the cross, being raised and ascending to heaven in God's experience? No passage in the Bible makes a claim that God does not experience time.
Infinite hours.
It's also infinite weeks, months, years, centuries, etc.
And that's the point. When something can't be distinguished or quantified, it is beyond the concept.
It's enough that we understand that God is that He is. This transcends human understanding. Having no beginning or end puts the person of God beyond time. And time itself was created with creation. In the beginning...a definite point in time. Evening and morning...new day. A definite position in time. Sun to rule the day, moon at night...definite periods of time. Forever...outside the concept of time.
This doesn't preclude God from entering into the time and space He created. But it does preclude understanding God in terms of time and space.
And that's the point. When something can't be distinguished or quantified, it is beyond the concept.
It's enough that we understand that God is that He is. This transcends human understanding. Having no beginning or end puts the person of God beyond time. And time itself was created with creation. In the beginning...a definite point in time. Evening and morning...new day. A definite position in time. Sun to rule the day, moon at night...definite periods of time. Forever...outside the concept of time.
This doesn't preclude God from entering into the time and space He created. But it does preclude understanding God in terms of time and space.
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The question is not asked with IMO intellectual honesty. First, of HE, we know how much space God needs, and one asked, Who made the space for him? That question is asked because one doesn't:
1. know the God of the Bible
2. will not accept God as the Creator
3. God is outside of time, Space, and Matter.
The God of the Bible says I Am the Self-Existing One with No beginning and no End. One accepts that or doesn't
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i say God occupied space, wherever he wanted to. so many questions similar to this are in the "doesn't matter" category but they are not wrong to ask. God can have size & not have size, i believe. the o.t. book of Ecclesiastes explains the our great limited knowledge on earth is a reason for the virtue of wisdom to be exercised. lets apply that here. know that 1 day all we Christians will find out.
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If the law of non-contradiction does not apply to God, and He can be spiritually everywhere and nowhere at the same time, even though scripture never says he has been nowhere at any time, then He can be a liar and a truth-teller, good and evil, a covenant keeper and a covenant breaker, loving and indifferent, kind and cruel... all at the same time. How can you trust a God like that to keep His promises?
that is not what he said. The created cannot comprehend the Creator. Time, space, and matter are relevant at the time they entered or stopped. That did not change the one who created time that can be measured. God is the First Cause uncaused. Your understanding is putting limits on the God of the Bible, who doesn't have any. We have to admit no such thing.
None of your comments, though interesting, answer the actual OP questions.
"Does God have size? If God has size, how big is He? If God has size now, was God always this big?"
My proposition is that God is love, holy, merciful, just... and time and space. So no one made space for God. Prove me wrong from scripture. Where does scripture say God made tme and space, rather than God made a beginning for the world and made the world within His space?
If the God of the bible is a mystery, how do you knpw your own inferences about Him are true? And how were you authorised to arbitrate on the accuracy of other people's different inferences about God. I use the bible, the cross and logic to arrive at my inferences about God. I have shown scripture in this thread that says Cod is everywhere. I cannot escape His presence. If I ascend to heaven He is there. If I descend to sheol He is there. He is in every believer. How can these be true if His spirit is not spacial so that He is imminent within all things? You are proposing a contradiction to these biblical statements that is not stated within scripture. Why? Where does you idea come from?
How can you say I don't know the God of the Bible but you do, when my propositions are clearly stated in the Bible and yours are not?
How can you say I will not accept God as creator, when I have referred to Him creating many times in this thread?
How can you assert God is outside of time and space when scripture clearly states the opposite, and does not state what you assert?
"Does God have size? If God has size, how big is He? If God has size now, was God always this big?"
My proposition is that God is love, holy, merciful, just... and time and space. So no one made space for God. Prove me wrong from scripture. Where does scripture say God made tme and space, rather than God made a beginning for the world and made the world within His space?
If the God of the bible is a mystery, how do you knpw your own inferences about Him are true? And how were you authorised to arbitrate on the accuracy of other people's different inferences about God. I use the bible, the cross and logic to arrive at my inferences about God. I have shown scripture in this thread that says Cod is everywhere. I cannot escape His presence. If I ascend to heaven He is there. If I descend to sheol He is there. He is in every believer. How can these be true if His spirit is not spacial so that He is imminent within all things? You are proposing a contradiction to these biblical statements that is not stated within scripture. Why? Where does you idea come from?
How can you say I don't know the God of the Bible but you do, when my propositions are clearly stated in the Bible and yours are not?
How can you say I will not accept God as creator, when I have referred to Him creating many times in this thread?
How can you assert God is outside of time and space when scripture clearly states the opposite, and does not state what you assert?
you remind me of "paralysis by analysis". i never said that God, definitely can be no where.. i said i believe He could be no where if He wanted to. maybe, i am incorrect. it sounded possible to me. i never studied that. no one has seen God the father but Christians will see Him 1 day, His shekinah glory.
Not at all. Your mind is inadequate to understand what it is to be God. God was both at one and the same time both operating within the bounds of creation and outside of it.
As far as being something new, as in being made human, from our perspective it would appear so. But that, too, is not of necessity so. What you seem to fail to understand is the nature of God. You are looking at Him with a finite mind. We cannot grasp what it is to be infinite.
Do you believe your worship is holy and acceptable to God? Do you believe it adequately ascribes to God all that He is and sufficiently imparts to Him the glory that He is worthy to receive? Even if you were unencumbered by sin, would your worship, though it were ceaseless, ever adequately be all that God is worthy to receive? Why not?
Will you ever be able to say you worshipped God acceptably in your own self?
I use this example because it illustrates the limitations we have. God is beyond finding out. We may think we understand a particular subject concerning God and still not. There is nothing wrong with exploring these matters. It is the glory of kings to do such. But as Clint Eastwood famously said...A man's got to know his limitations.
As far as being something new, as in being made human, from our perspective it would appear so. But that, too, is not of necessity so. What you seem to fail to understand is the nature of God. You are looking at Him with a finite mind. We cannot grasp what it is to be infinite.
Do you believe your worship is holy and acceptable to God? Do you believe it adequately ascribes to God all that He is and sufficiently imparts to Him the glory that He is worthy to receive? Even if you were unencumbered by sin, would your worship, though it were ceaseless, ever adequately be all that God is worthy to receive? Why not?
Will you ever be able to say you worshipped God acceptably in your own self?
I use this example because it illustrates the limitations we have. God is beyond finding out. We may think we understand a particular subject concerning God and still not. There is nothing wrong with exploring these matters. It is the glory of kings to do such. But as Clint Eastwood famously said...A man's got to know his limitations.