Did God occupy any space before creation?

[PaulThomson]

Ok then, is the OP any sort of trap laid out to ensnare anyone that you perceive to be claiming otherwise?

You said -
It would seem attempting to measure the immeasurable be a venture in futility.

I responded -
I don't see how suggesting God is infinite in space and infinite in time is measuring the immeasurable, any more than suggesting God is infinite in mercy or love or power.

The OP was to elicit responses to the questions and to find out whether the answers offered to those questions are coherent when we start from our various traditional assumptions about God's nature. Or whether our traditional assumptions about God's nature renders incoherent answers to the OP questions, and there may be better explanations of God's nature than our particular traditions have served up to us as sound doctrine.

It's not a trap.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is Spirit in eternity.. Size requires dimensions and that is of this physical universe.. Now can God enter this universe? Yes because Jesus is LORD.. So one can say that the God is the size of Jesus.. Also God created both the Heavens and the Earth. So as the Father in Heaven which has been described in OT scripture.. We can say that the Father who sits on His throne in Heaven has size.. But again before creation did God have Size? No.. He was and still is The Holy Spirit.. But He is also the Father in Heaven and Jesus who was on Earth..

If God had no size before creation, but now has size to accommodate the universe He created, does that not imply a change in God? However, if God has always possessed an attribute of spaciality and has always been infinitely big, then He would simply have created things inside of the space that He has always possessed as part of His intrinsic being. Which theory sounds more reasonable and biblically compatible to you?

 

[Adstar]

If God had no size before creation, but now has size to accommodate the universe He created, does that not imply a change in God?

God has always been and will forever be perfect.. Zero Change..

However, if God has always possessed an attribute of spaciality and has always been infinitely big

,

Why are you talking about Size ? Why say God is infinitely Big ??

then He would simply have created things inside of the space that He has always possessed as part of His intrinsic being. Which theory sounds more reasonable and biblically compatible to you?

Oh you are bringing forth the doctrine the universe is a part of God and therefore the universe is God and therefore we who are in the universe are also a part of God and therefore we are Gods?

No we are not Gods.. There is only One God and there will only ever be One God..

 

[PaulThomson]

God has always been and will forever be perfect.. Zero Change..


,

Why are you talking about Size ? Why say God is infinitely Big ??




Oh you are bringing forth the doctrine the universe is a part of God and therefore the universe is God and therefore we who are in the universe are also a part of God and therefore we are Gods?

No we are not Gods.. There is only One God and there will only ever be One God..

If there is zero change and the universe fits inside God because God is imminent and omnipresent, then God must have been bigger than the extant universe he created for Him to fill it. It seems you do not want to follow logic if it is going to contradict your traditions.

If God does not have size, and that size in not bigger than the extant Universe, then the universe is bigger than God and God cannot be omnipresent.

No, I am not saying the universe is part of God. I never said that. Nor that God is everything. But if He inhabits everything, He must be at least as big as everything. No we are not Gods, although scripture and Jesus calls us gods (lords over the dark powers), because the word of God has come to us. There is only one God.

 

[Adstar]

If there is zero change and the universe fits inside God because God is imminent and omnipresent, then God must have been bigger than the extant universe he created for Him to fill it. It seems you do not want to follow logic if it is going to contradict your traditions.

If God does not have size, and that size in not bigger than the extant Universe, then the universe is bigger than God and God cannot be omnipresent.

No, I am not saying the universe is part of God. I never said that. Nor that God is everything. But if He inhabits everything, He must be at least as big as everything. No we are not Gods, although scripture and Jesus calls us gods (lords over the dark powers), because the word of God has come to us. There is only one God.

Nope.. God created the universe and the universe needs size because it is physical.. God who existed before there was anything physical does not need anything physical and thus He does not need to be a ""Size"" Your logic is human logic thinking God is of this or a part of the physical universe.. The Creator's creation is not limited by any attribute of God..

Glad you only believe in one God.. The only misconception you have is that God needs to be bigger then the universe for God to be able to know it all, as it is, in any instant of it's space time..

 

[PaulThomson]

Nope.. God created the universe and the universe needs size because it is physical.. God who existed before there was anything physical does not need anything physical and thus He does not need to be a ""Size"" Your logic is human logic thinking God is of this or a part of the physical universe.. The Creator's creation is not limited by any attribute of God..

Glad you only believe in one God.. The only misconception you have is that God needs to be bigger then the universe for God to be able to know it all, as it is, in any instant of it's space time..

Scripture describes God as having **size**. Why do you feel compelled to deny scripture chsracterising God as having size?

Psalm 8:3–4. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Ps. 95:3For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
4In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.
5The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.
6O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.

Ps.139:5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Acts 17:26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Is.40:12Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
15Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Is.48:13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

 

[PaulThomson]

Scripture describes God as having **size**. Why do you feel compelled to deny scripture chsracterising God as having size?

Psalm 8:3–4. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Ps. 95:3For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
4In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.
5The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.
6O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.

Ps.139:5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Acts 17:26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Is.40:12Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
15Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Is.48:13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

So, having demonstrated from scripture that space, or spaciality, has always been a component of God's nature, and since space and time are a continuum, we can reasonably conclude from scripture that time, or temporality, has also always been a component of God's nature.

 

[PaulThomson]

So, having demonstrated from scripture that space, or spaciality, has always been a component of God's nature, and since space and time are a continuum, we can reasonably conclude from scripture that time, or temporality, has also always been a component of God's nature.

Contrary to the deductions of human reasonings that did not begin from God's revelation, but from men's own intellects, to postulate a fictitious state of timelessness, God has always been temporal, existing from everlasting to everlasting.

Psalm 41:13 KJV — Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:2 KJV — Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Psalm 93:2 KJV — Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Psalm 103:17 KJV — But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Psalm 106:48 KJV — Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

Isaiah 63:16 KJV — Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Micah 5:2 KJV — But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Habakkuk 1:12 KJV — Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

 

[Cameron143]

Contrary to the deductions of human reasonings that did not begin from God's revelation, but from men's own intellects, to postulate a fictitious state of timelessness, God has always been temporal, existing from everlasting to everlasting.

Psalm 41:13 KJV — Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:2 KJV — Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Psalm 93:2 KJV — Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Psalm 103:17 KJV — But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Psalm 106:48 KJV — Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

Isaiah 63:16 KJV — Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Micah 5:2 KJV — But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Habakkuk 1:12 KJV — Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Temporal means earthly and time-related. God is spirit and eternal. He is also infinite. You seem to make God subject to His own creation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Temporal means earthly and time-related. God is spirit and eternal. He is also infinite. You seem to make God subject to His own creation.

No. It CAN mean that. But that is clearly not the meaning I intended.

*temporal*
1 of 3
adjective (1)
tem·po·ral ˈtem-p(ə-)rəl
Synonyms of temporal
*1
a
: of or relating to time as opposed to eternity*
b
: of or relating to earthly life
c
: lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred : CIVIL
lords temporal
2
: of or relating to grammatical tense or a distinction of time
*3
a
: of or relating to time as distinguished from space
b
: of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time : CHRONOLOGICAL*

On what biblical grounds do you deny the temporal nature scripture ascribes to God before creation? On what other grounds do you deny the temporal nature scripture ascribes to God before creation?

 

[Magenta]

So, having demonstrated from scripture that space, or spaciality, has always been a component of God's nature, and since space and time are a continuum, we can reasonably conclude from scripture that time, or temporality, has also always been a component of God's nature.

I don't believe you have proven that. Do you really think the finite human mind can fully grasp the infinite nature of God? That He uses language to help us apprehend His eternality should not be taken literally as meaning God has hands, for instance, but if you want to go in that, direction Jesus is the agency through which God accomplishes or manifests His will. So we can say with some confidence that Jesus is being represented when the hands or arms or eyes of God are being mentioned. God spoke and the universe was created through His Word Who is Christ. All things exist in by and for Him, but as @Cameron143 said, that does not make God subject to His own creation.

 

[Cameron143]

No. It CAN mean that. But that is clearly not the meaning I intended.

*temporal*
1 of 3
adjective (1)
tem·po·ral ˈtem-p(ə-)rəl
Synonyms of temporal
*1
a
: of or relating to time as opposed to eternity*
b
: of or relating to earthly life
c
: lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred : CIVIL
lords temporal
2
: of or relating to grammatical tense or a distinction of time
*3
a
: of or relating to time as distinguished from space
b
: of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time : CHRONOLOGICAL*

On what biblical grounds do you deny the temporal nature scripture ascribes to God before creation? On what other grounds do you deny the temporal nature scripture ascribes to God before creation?

You believe from everlasting to everlasting is temporal?

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 34:15-16 The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are inclined to their cry; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to wipe out all memory of them from the earth.

 

[Huckleberry]

Does God have size? If God has size, how big is He? If God has size now, was God always this big?

In the beginning God created the heaven (space) and the earth (matter).
God is light and spirit. Neither are material nor take up any space.

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't believe you have proven that. Do you really think the finite human mind can fully grasp the infinite nature of God? That He uses language to help us apprehend His eternality should not be taken literally as meaning God has hands, for instance, but if you want to go in that, direction Jesus is the agency through which God accomplishes or manifests His will. So we can say with some confidence that Jesus is being represented when the hands or arms or eyes of God are being mentioned. God spoke and the universe was created through His Word Who is Christ. All things exist in by and for Him, but as @Cameron143 said, that does not make God subject to His own creation.

Do you not realise that the idea that God is outside of all time was derived purely from finite minds deciding what God cannot be, without any reference to God's revelation of Himself in scripture.

Then those finite minds forced their finite rationalisations into the Bible. And then, when doing so threw up all kinds of conflicts with scripture itself, they insist/ed that scripture does not mean what it appears to say about God at face value, but God is just using figurative anthropomorphisms to communicate with us. But He is nothing like what the figures imply He is like, according to them. They claim that He is a mystery beyond *your and my* understanding, and yet they have arrogated to themselves the ability to describe that mystery in premises that came from their own finite minds.

So it's ironic that you are dismissing my view, which is based on scripture, while you are claiming that finite minds CANNOT fully grasp the nature of God; but you are holding uncritically to a dogma on the nature of God that does not derive from scripture as read, nor does it represent scripture as read, but has been arrived at by pre- biblical philosophy and whose proponents claims to be incontrovertible truth about the nature of the mysterious God who is beyond their own understanding.

 

[PaulThomson]

You believe from everlasting to everlasting is temporal?

Certainly.. "From time past without any beginning into time future without any end" is what from everlasting to everlasting has to mean, unless one does some sophisticated pretzel-bending with the phrase.

There are many things in the bible that those writing them did not understand. I'm sure God could have said "I did not exist within time before I created the world" if it was important for us to realise He exists outside of all time, and we should not take seriously expressions in His revelation that are about or by God that imply His temporality.

 

[PaulThomson]

In the beginning God created the heaven (space) and the earth (matter).
God is light and spirit. Neither are material nor take up any space.

Light travels at 380,000,000 m/s. It needs space to do that.
God's Spirit cannot be evaded, so is immknent within all of space.

 

[Magenta]

Do you not realise that the idea that God is outside of all time was derived purely from finite minds
deciding what God cannot be, without any reference to God's revelation of Himself in scripture.

I never said that God was outside of all time. I said it is generally considered
to be true that God both inhabits and transcends His creation .

So it's ironic that you are dismissing my view, which is based on scripture, while you are claiming that finite minds CANNOT fully grasp the nature of God; but you are holding uncritically to a dogma on the nature of God that does not derive from scripture as read, nor does it represent scripture as read, but has been arrived at by pre- biblical philosophy and whose proponents claims to be incontrovertible truth about the nature of the mysterious God who is beyond their own understanding.

Apparently you are not grasping at all what I am saying or have said.

This brings us back to my first post. If you believe you can fully grasp the nature of God, your God is too small for me.

 

[PaulThomson]

I never said that God was outside of all time. I said it is generally considered
to be true that God both inhabits and transcends His creation .

Apparently you are not grasping at all what I am saying or have said.

This brings us back to my first post. If you believe you can fully grasp the nature of God, your God is too small for me.

What you said was -

I don't believe you have proven that. Do you really think the finite human mind can fully grasp the infinite nature of God? That He uses language to help us apprehend His eternality should not be taken literally as meaning God has hands, for instance, but if you want to go in that, direction Jesus is the agency through which God accomplishes or manifests His will. So we can say with some confidence that Jesus is being represented when the hands or arms or eyes of God are being mentioned. God spoke and the universe was created through His Word Who is Christ. All things exist in by and for Him, but as @Cameron143 said, that does not make God subject to His own creation.

You assumed eternality (outside of all time), which is what I addressed. I did not say "all outside of time or space".

Why do you think I have not proved from scripture that God's Spirit, and therefore God, has size. If one cannot escape God"s presence, God must be at least some places, if not everywhere. And to be several places at once, one would need to span those places where one is. How do you logically escape the conclusion from scripture that God occupies space ?

 

[Magenta]

I did not say "all outside of time or space".

Do you not realise that the idea that God is outside of all time

You assumed eternality (outside of all time),

No, I did not. Scripture says God is eternal despite your erroneous claims and false accusations. Such as:

you are holding uncritically to a dogma on the nature of God that does not
derive from scripture as read, nor does it represent scripture as read,

Scripture explicitly ascribes eternality to God.

I knew some time ago that this would not be an edifying thread. Not sure
what you're trying to prove, but whatever it is, you are going about it all wrong.