The Security Of The Believer

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy, like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord, seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasions, they do not do a “good work” to redeem that sin, but they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds alone. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Many Christians today seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked your average Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which, in my view, is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.

2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.

3. reliable, trusted, or believed.

4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.

Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context of many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example, 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a “belief alone?” No. The Lord is faithful to strengthen us (or to establish us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Christians today have tried to come up with tricky ways not to apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their erroneous “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (Even though Luther was admirable for speaking against the Catholic Church).

#3. Romans 10:17 says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on “the water” (Which is a work of God).

What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on “the water”? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. Ephesians 2:9 refers to “Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace)” because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says, “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16). So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God, and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of “the obedience to the faith.” There is no such thing as “the disobedience of the faith.” For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example, 1 Peter 3:1 and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient.” It is used in context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not.” In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and its usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

[Continued in next post]:

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

#8. Works make a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

James 2:22 connects with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar, and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”

Paul says in context within Galatians 5:13-14, “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” “Service” is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have its service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because), all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone, then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for, and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude 1:3-4 says, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith, and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 NLT says, “Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.”

Revelation 13:10 KJB says, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” This is saying that believers going to prison and dying by the sword is a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e., the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word, “justified," is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue that we are justified by faith in regard to salvation. But this same word, “justified," is used in reference to “works,” too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For James 2:18 says, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works are how one shows their faith.

So, in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

When looking at the Old Law one can categorize the Old Testament Mosaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) into a threefold division:

Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).

Even before the written Law of Moses: We can see that there were Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.), and Ceremonial Laws (like: animal sacrifices).

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Side Note:

Granted, Paul says the Law is good if one uses it lawfully. This means there are some aspects of it that are good that can be applied to our lives (like if one wants to put God’s words on their doorposts if they want). But the point is that we are not bound by the Old Law overall. Now, that said, there are a few OT Laws that do apply that are not mentioned in the NT like God forbidding tattoos and bestiality, etcetera.

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

mailmandan said:

Dear Dan:

Greetings again to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope all has been well since your last reply to me. May the goodness of God illuminate your understanding further by the Holy Spirit as you read His Holy words this fine day that He has made.

Also, I would like to say that misunderstandings can happen when talking to a general group of people. So in order for folks to not misunderstand my belief or position on this topic, I must reclarify what I believe the Bible teaches on this matter. I believe the Holy Scriptures teach that there are two aspects of salvation.

Aspect of Salvation #1. We are initially saved by God’s grace through faith (Which is a belief alone or a process of salvation with works). This is believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation. This is Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism, which was taught by the apostle Paul. This can sometimes include calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation (See: Romans 10:9, and Romans 10:13). Grace through faith for salvation without works in our Initial Salvation can be seen in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6.

Aspect of Salvation #2. We are chosen by God to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Also see: Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9, and 1 Timothy 5:8). This is being washed by the water of the Word to be a church that is holy in conduct (See: Ephesians 5:25-27). This is a process done by the working of the Holy Spirit by our free will cooperation in adherence to the New Covenant (New Testament) by the Holy Scriptures. This Sanctification and a belief of the truth mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is NOT the gospel (that initially saves us), but it is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

For clarity, I would encourage folks to check out my post here to help them understand the Bible’s teaching that there are two aspects of salvation, and not just one.

[Continued in my next post to you]

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

@mailmandan

Okay, to get down to business:

You basically claim that works will always be evident of a true saving faith, but these works do not save. Here is my…

Short answer:

The point here is that a branch (believer) can be IN JESUS (which is by faith - Romans 5:1-2) and yet they did not bear fruit and thus… they are taken away. The result of being taken away is verse 6. Meaning, if they are taken away, they are no longer abiding in Christ because of fruitlessness and they are cast forth into the fire to be burned.

John 15:6 says,

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Fruit is dealing with good deeds, see Luke 3:8-14. Also compare the words “meet for repentance” in Matthew 3:8 with Acts 26:20 that says, “works meet for repentance”. The branch being cast into the fire is a loss of salvation because there are other verses that teach a loss of salvation by a lack of work or fruit like the unprofitable servant being cast into outer darkness in the Parable of the Talents (See: Matthew 25:14-30).

Being saved once in the past by a one time moment of faith does not guarantee that we will forever endure to the end in our faith to be saved, either.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So it’s not a one time moment of faith. Our faith continues, and it includes being faithful unto death, and continuing in His goodness, etcetera. While I do not deny there is a connection between God’s grace and works (Luke 7:36-50) (1 Corinthians 15:10) and a connection between faith and works (James 2:18), we also have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and realize that Jesus also said, “Every branch IN ME” and yet this branch did not bear fruit according to John 15:2, and this branch’s fate was being cast into the fire in John 15:6.

[Continued in my next post to you]:

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

@mailmandan:

Again, you basically claim that works will always be evident of a true saving faith, but these works do not save. To address this in more detail, here is my….

Long answer:

How do detectives solve murders? They sometimes get into the motivations of WHY the criminal suspect had killed somebody. What was the murder suspect’s motivation for doing or saying certain things? This is an art that not everybody has, and it must be learned. Just looking at outward statements and ignoring the motivations of the murder suspect can hinder in solving a murder case. Good detectives look at all the clues and details to piece together their case. We need to really look a little deeper sometimes to discover the truth.

Now, let's get to the Bible. So why was Paul talking in the way that he did about being saved by God’s grace through faith without works? Was Paul talking about how we GET saved or was Paul talking about the Sanctification of the believer? Why was he bringing up circumcision at times in this discussion? These are questions that must be asked and I believe Holy Scripture has the answers. We must get inside the mind of Paul and truly understand his motivations behind his words. If not, one is just reading words on a page and making wrong conclusions on those words without really looking at the dynamic level of the author’s intent.

Many not taking these facts into account look at the Bible involving this topic and they make wrong conclusions.

Here are five major things most Christians do not understand or accept in Scripture (that hinders their understanding on this topic).

#1. Many times, Paul is talking about Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace by a belief alone (Note: This belief alone is temporal and only exists in our Initial Salvation) (To check out my commentary of a few verses by the apostle Paul on his teaching of Initial Salvation, please see here).

#2. Paul alludes to his fight against Circumcision Salvationism (Which was the heresy clearly defined to us in Acts chapter 15) (See here).

#3. Works for salvation verses are a part of our Sanctification (Which is a part of the secondary aspect of salvation after we are saved initially by God’s grace). (Works for salvation verses should simply be believed with a plan child like reading and without a person trying to spin them to say something else because one is trying to insert the OSAS belief or Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism into the text) (In other words, is one employing exegesis or eisegesis?) (Anyway, to check out there verses, see here).

#4. Faith is like a two sided coin. The first side of the coin of faith is a belief alone in the Savior and the gospel message, which takes place in our Initial Salvation. The second side of the coin of faith is Sanctification to live a holy life. Sanctification is the next step in our faith. (See here).

#5. Christians sometimes confuse which sets of Laws we are under. They confuse Paul’s reference to the Old Law as being a reference to not being under any kind of laws. However, Paul was talking about how we are not under the Old Law, and not the New Law. The truth is that the Old Law is no more, and the Law has changed. (See here).

[Continued in my next post to you]:

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

mailmandan said:

Actually, that is not exactly what I believe the Bible teaches. This is only partially true and not entirely true. I believe faith is like a two sided coin.

#1. Faith starts off as a belief alone (believing the gospel message that saves in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), but faith does not remain a a belief alone.

#2. Faith continues in believing the rest of your Bible like the other instructions on what God tells us to do. We are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. We are bought and paid for with a price and we are not our own. There is a thing called the work of faith. We must take the next step of faith into Sanctification.

If things are as you say and “works” was just the result of “faith” (belief/trust), then why so many parables about us doing good works? Why is there no ending point in how to solve one being unfruitful by just having a stronger belief alone in Jesus as our Savior and or the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Now, again, I am not denying there is no connection between faith and works. Our faith in God’s grace and the mercy He has shown us can lead us to be fruitful (1 Corinthians 15:10). But Jesus also warns us to be fruitful in many places, too. Nowhere does Jesus and His followers teach that works will always be automatic in our whole Christian life just because we have a belief in the Savior and the gospel message.

Also, I would not say that faith is the root of our salvation. The root of our salvation is Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. Faith is merely the vehicle or access card to God’s grace that saves. Yes, we are justified by faith according to Romans 5:1 but it also says this is through Jesus Christ. God saves us when we have the proper kind of faith in Him. This is a faith that starts off as a belief alone in His grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it takes the next step of faith and believes God’s instructions on Sanctification to live a holy life (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

As for Catholics:

I have talked recently to a Catholic who believes that baptism is faith and not a work. They believe baptism is the entrance gate to salvation. They believe works follow after one is saved by faith (baptism). Of course this is a contradictory hot mess. We know there is a connection between baptism and circumcision. According to the Bible, circumcision is a work (See: Compare Galatians 2:3-4, with Galatians 2:15-16 and compare Romans 4:1-6 with Romans 4:9-12):. In addition, in the Bible, circumcision is a type of baptism. A believer would first be circumcised in the Old Testament to show they were a Jew. In the New Covenant, we believers are baptized to let others know we identify with the burial of Christ and we are Christian.

Colossians 2:11-12 says,

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

So baptism is a work. Therefore, the Catholic I was talking with not too long ago is wrong for saying baptism is faith and it is not a work unlike other works that follow. So he tries to make his belief similar to mine, but it is not true to what the Bible says. Baptism is not a belief alone unlike believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to be initially saved.

Besides, we know the thief on the cross was initially saved by God’s grace through faith without doing any kind of baptism or works. Note: Some have suggested that the thief may have been baptized prior to his life of becoming a thief, but John’s baptism is not the New Covenant form of baptism (See: Acts 19:1-7). There is a difference in being baptized with John’s water baptism of repentance (under the Old Covenant) vs. being baptized in the name of Jesus (under the New Covenant). Jesus’ death began the New Covenant (New Testament) officially. Seeing the thief had died after Jesus did, this proves that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was initially saved solely by God’s grace through faith and not by any kind of baptism or works (Note: Keep in mind that I am referring to the 1st aspect of salvation only here; The thief never got a chance to live out His faith in Sanctification - which is the secondary aspect of salvation).

[Continued in my next post to you]:

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

mailmandan said:

Abraham being accounted righteous by a belief alone in the promise is a parallel of our Initial Salvation. So it is 100% true. But 1 John 3:8 says, “he that does righteousness is righteous.” 1 John 1:7 basically says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, too. “Walking in the light” = “Loving your brother” according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So John is talking about our Sanctification or the next step in our faith after we are saved by God’s grace by a belief alone.

In Romans 4: The point of Abraham being accounted righteous by believing the promise is a parallel with our Initial Salvation because Romans 5:2 says, “…we have access by faith into this grace…”; And Romans 4:3-5 is contrasted with how Abraham was accounted righteousness by believing the promise before being circumcised (Which is a work) (See the contrast in Romans 4:9-12).

mailmandan said:

Sorry, my friend. I don’t believe you have made it simple, but complicated. If you are not saved by works ever at any point in your Christian life, then you don’t need them and you can live an unfruitful life and be saved without works. But you basically say works must be there to show a faith that saves. So you are saying on the other hand that you need “works” as a part of the salvation equation because you don’t believe you can live out this Christian life without “works” and be saved. So works are necessary for salvation. In other words, as I stated to you before, you believe in a contradiction. Even if works were not salvific, the fact that you need them to show a saving faith demonstrates that they are a part of salvation. So you set up a self imploding contradictory belief. The only way for your belief to be consistent is if you say that a believer can have no works their whole lives and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus.

[Continued in my next post to you]:

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

mailmandan said:

First, I am not claiming that James is talking about the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. James is talking about the second step of faith, which is Sanctification. Paul is talking about the Initial step of faith in being saved by God’s grace through faith (a belief alone).

Second, here is a saying that you will not find in the book of James:

“But brethren, please understand, these works that justify are before men only and not before God.”

(The Imaginary Verse of Second Opinions).

Example:

“I will show you my claim in being an excellent artist by revealing to you my artwork, and I will also have you read testimonies of some praises of my work from many within the city who enjoy my art.”

Now does that mean people outside the city do not enjoy his artwork or do not think it is good? No. That’s the point. One needs to have the words that clearly establish such a thing.

You ignore the context of James 1, and 2 (the proceeding words) and you make the statement “I will show you my faith by my works” in James 2:18 as referring to being justified only before men and not God, when it does not specifically does not even say that.

Looking at just James:

1. You have to receive the engrafted words of the New Covent, which is able to save your souls. “…lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

2. Like being a doer of the Word. However, the person who just hears the Word only deceives themselves. “ …be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22).

3. This includes having a pure religion undefiled before God in loving the fatherless and the widows in visiting them in their affliction and remaining unspotted from the world (Which are actions or works). “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27).

3. James then mentions a situation among the brethren whereby they showed “respect of persons” by giving favor to the rich brethren and not the poor brethren. This is sin. “But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.” (James 2:9).

4. And it leads to having judgment without mercy who showed no mercy. “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” (James 2:13).

5. James 2:14-16 (KJB) says, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?” We see here another parallel of not having “respect of persons” in James 1:1-13 with James 2:14-16. It asks the question, “Can faith save him?” This is in view of not providing for your brother if they are naked or they do not have any food. We learn in 1 Timothy 5:8 that it says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

6. James 2:14-16 is the context to James 2:17 in that faith without works is dead. So this is an example of showing how it is a salvation issue involving one’s right standing with God. Well, that is if you believe the context. But many who hold to Unconditional Eternal Security will of course try to explain away the context because it does not fit their OSAS belief. They attempt to try and come up with a work around and cram new meaning into the Bible (eisegesis), and they will not let the text speak for itself (exegesis).

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

mailmandan said:

Again…

You cannot cut out certain parts of the Bible and say they are not a part of the faith.
You have to believe or have faith in ALL of the Bible.

You would not say that the work of the Lord has nothing to do with the Lord. Then we should not say that work from faith is separate from faith. Paul says he perfects his faith by his works. Meaning, things can work in reverse order.

I hope this helps, and may God’s good ways shine upon you and your family.

Sincerely,

~ A Bible Highlighter.

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

Abraham being accounted righteous by a belief alone in the promise is a parallel of our Initial Salvation. So it is 100% true. But 1 John 3:8 says, “he that does righteousness is righteous.” 1 John 1:7 basically says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, too. “Walking in the light” = “Loving your brother” according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So John is talking about our Sanctification or the next step in our faith after we are saved by God’s grace by a belief alone.

@mailmandan

I was just proof-reading a little. I meant to say 1 John 3:7, and not 1 John 3:8.

selahsays · Dec 22, 2023

@Bible_Highlighter What’s with all the paste jobs?

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

selahsays said:

They are my own writings or verses I have collected. I like to add pictures and be exhaustive in making my point.
I also was trying to answer mailmandan properly. In short, I am not trying to leave him any excuses to defend his unbiblical belief.
If you like Scripture or to be challenged by it, I would encourage you to check them out.

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

selahsays said:

Please keep in mind that I do not always do such a thing on Christian forums over the years. This was one of those rare times I wanted to leave no stone unturned because I am very passionate about this topic.

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 22, 2023

This video by Kerrigan here helped me to understand Paul better.
He goes into describing the early church heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.”

mailmandan · Dec 22, 2023

selahsays said:

I have no excuses or unbiblical beliefs to defend and Bible_Highlighter's long-winded eisegesis culminates in salvation by faith PLUS WORKS in contradiction to scripture no matter how much he tries to sugar coat it. (Romans 4:5-6)

He is very passionate about this topic because his "type 2 works salvation" gospel results in shared credit with Jesus Christ for salvation. He is yet to place his faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Bible_Highlighter clearly exposed his false gospel of "salvation by works at the back door" in post #716 below:

The Security Of The Believer - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

His arguments line up with the same arguments that Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists use as a result of confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

I clearly exposed the very heart of his error in post #1,042 below:

The Security Of The Believer - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

mailmandan · Dec 22, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

You have shared the same long-winded eisegesis on the Christian Forums site as well.

Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With): | Christian Forums

I think you will have better luck at drawing disciples after yourself on the Christian Forums site than you will on Christian Chat.

Cameron143 · Dec 22, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

A better translation of John 15:2 is...every branch that bears not fruit in me...
It is possible to bear fruit that is not in Him.

There are many who attach themselves to Christ who are not saved. While they may become very familiar with the Bible, the minister, the congregation, the songbook, they have never been born again. They do not know Jesus.

According to John 17:3, knowing God and knowing Jesus is the essence of eternal life. This is the standard of true salvation. I realize the phrase...a personal relationship with Jesus...is often overused and misunderstood, but it is an accurate description of what salvation consists in. It is noteworthy that in Matthew 7:23 it is the lack of knowledge of Jesus that He gives for the reason He sends them away.

Another interesting consideration is what fruit actually is and who produces it. According to Galatians 5. It is produced by the Spirit and not any mention is made concerning works. Spirit produced fruit deals with traits or character. And because they are produced by God, they are the character of God. And it is this way that the glory of the knowledge of the Lord fills the earth. It is Christ in the believer who reveals who God truly is.

Does all this preclude works? Of course not. After all, we were created in Christ Jesus unto good works. But within those works, the purpose will be the glory of God. When operating in the Spirit, the believer isn't even aware of his or her ministry. Recall Matthew 25 where Jesus is separating the sheep and the goats...when did we?...

Nehemiah6 · Dec 22, 2023

selahsays said:

Just trolling.

Everlasting-Grace · Dec 22, 2023

Wow @mailmandan you got BH to write a book..lol

Its to bad it is full of mistakes and and attempt to get to God through the back door of self righteousness

The fact is we have been saved by Grace (eph 2: 8)

The fact is, it is not by good deeds which we have done, But by Gods mercy Titus 3: 5

The fact is we have been washed by the washing of water by the word, - eph 5: 26

The fact is we are made a child of God by receiving him - John 1: 12

the fact is all this is accomplished THROUGH faith.

It is by faith we recieve him, It by by faith in the word we come to him (john 6)

It is by faith we take in the bread from heaven and believe (john 6)

It is by faith we hear the words and believe (john 5)

It is by faith we ask for the living water, (john 4)

It is by faith we look to the cross as they looked to the serpent in Moses day to live (john 3)

John makes it clear in all these passages, all who trust him will never perish, never hunger, never thirst, Live forever. Have eternal life, Have passed from death to life. Shall not come into judgment, and will be raised on the last day.

We are saved BY GRACE, through the love of Christ who gave his ife for us.

It is in this LOVE we have recieved that we are saved, and made new creatures.

It is out of this love, we have recieved, we now have the ability to love others (we love because he first loved us We can not love him BEFORE re recieve his love, and we can not earn his love by works.

We produce fruit because in being born again, he attaches us to the vine, We can not produce fruit (works) apart from CHrist.

so anyone sho says we can work our way to eternal life is misled. As misled as the jew was who crucified Cheist because Christ said their works were worthless also.

I have learned through my many years in christian chat a few things.

1. No one reads long winded cut and past posts.. He may have written these words. But he still cut and pasted from a source he wrote it on. There is no way he could type that fast.

2. people usually post these long winded posts in attempt to destroy someone elses argument, Because they are unable to do it with just a few words.

3. They usually do it. Because their belief is so out there. They need to make sure they add every point.. because if you miss a few points, their belief falls apart.

4. They also know n one is going to take the time to answer every point, it would take way to long. So they use the non answer as a victory march that hw was right, because the other person can not answer him (which is not true)

5. Even when you are discussing a passage of scripture. You should not put everything down all at once. Because NO ONE reads every word. Do it a few verses at a time, and discuss before you move on.’

You were right Dan, All this time he was writting a huge eisegesis document in an attempt to prove you wrong.’

The sad part is, after all this time, he failed.

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