The Security Of The Believer

[mailmandan]

Greetings to you Dan in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It has been a while since we have last crossed swords (i.e., the battle we fight in using God’s Holy Word).
I hope you are doing well and may all manner of good things from Jesus Christ be upon you and your family (even if we strongly disagree on this topic).

In any event, to get down to the business at hand:

Well, I am not looking to throw down any hammer of judgment on anyone specifically alone. Meaning, I don’t’ set out to attack people and make it solely about them alone without it not relating to the argument or belief. I also strive not to make this my usual order of business, either. That’s not my game plan or how my mind works. I seek to love everyone, even my enemies (Granted, people have a funny idea about what they think love is according to the Bible). Anyway, my ultimate goal is to attack the wrong belief here and not the solely the individual. Granted, while one OSAS believer here claimed to not commit sins that are worthy of death, I had to challenge them on their belief. It was not so much about them personally really. I would prefer that they not tell me anything personal about their life at all. My goal was to show the inconsistencies in their own argument or belief in light of God’s Word. I never set out to make it personal unless somebody boasts about their conduct in light of their belief that is incorrect or immoral. I get no drug rush or satisfaction in trying to uplift myself over another. I am nothing. Christ is everything. We are dealing ultimately here with what we believe is the biblical belief here. Is salvation conditional or unconditional? That is the argument and where it should be primarily. This debate does not rest solely on any one believer and their life. We should say, ”For what saith the scripture?” as Romans 4:3 says. Yes, yes. I know. Romans 4:3-5 is dealing with what you believe refutes my belief. But from my perspective and understanding on Scripture this is clearly dealing with Initial Salvation and not the Secondary Aspect of Salvation (The second washing - Leviticus 13:58).

“Holier than thou” is an interesting phrase from the Word of God. There are actually 200 plus idiomatic phrases like this that were popularized by the King James Bible. I have been doing a study on these phrases found in the KJB, and it is quite eye opening to say the least.

In any case, Isaiah 65:5 has this phrase “Holier than thou” which is an idiom used today by even unbelievers.
But what is interesting is that this phrase was not said in context to a person who is seeking to obey God’s commands. In context, it was said of those who worshiped false idols and who broke the dietary laws of God. Okay. So now that we understand the context of Isaiah 65:5 and how it was used, you should understand that am not here advocating disobedience to God. However, I believe the OSAS position is for doing just that, though. They believe they can sin and still be saved all because they have a belief on Jesus as their Savior.

Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
But in the OSAS belief, it turns God’s grace into a license for immorality or lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).
Isaiah 26:10 (NKJV) “Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.”

I 100% agree with Luke 18:9-14. It is a poignant and powerful parable on warning us believers of the dangers of self righteousness and denying God’s grace or allowing His grace to shine.

There are some believers out there who would fit this description. For example: Adam at “Abide in the Word YouTube Channel“ would fit the description of this belief if I am understanding his belief correctly (From the few videos I have seen from him). if I am correct on understanding his belief, it appears like he does not believe like I do in the fact that we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works. So we are saved by a belief alone, but is only when we are initially saved. God’s grace (and not works) is also foundational to our salvation because if we slip up into a sin on rare occasion, we do not go out to do a good work to absolve that sin. But we can confess of our sins to the Lord Jesus Christ to be forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1. Let us boldly come to the throne of grace indeed. But the Pharisee made it all about Works and no grace whatsoever. He thought he was better than the one who was saved by God’s grace. But keep in mind this grace has to align with the grace in Titus 2:11-12, and not the false version of grace as shown in Jude 1:4.

The Pharisee also needed to learn the lesson that he is nothing and it was God who ultimately does the good work in Him and that without God He could do nothing. All praise should go to the Lord for any good done in his life. God is the One who makes us truly stand or fall. It is not solely our strength and power, but it is the Lord’s strength and power to do what is good and right.

But nowhere is this parable a defense for OSAS which leads men to think they can sin and still be saved. Yes, men can be in sin. When we first came to the Lord, our old life was one of sin. Yes, believers can stumble into sin on rare occasion, but they can go to God’s grace By confessing their sins and forsaking them and not say, I am saved even if I don’t confess or forsake these sins. I am already saved despite my being in sin. That’s not what the Parable is teaching. We see the Tax Collector seeking forgiveness of his sin with the Lord and not justifying that sin.

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).
No doubt about it.
But we must also understand that one can be proud by not agreeing with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, though.

1 Timothy 6:3-4
”If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…”

I hope this helps, and may you be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

A mere bible highlighter.
And may Jesus get all the glory.

Greetings to you as well and I also hope you are doing well. You and I have been down this road multiple times and on multiple Christian forum sites for years now and you and I both know that it never ends well. Allow me to cut to the chase and get right to the heart of your error which was clearly displayed in post #992 below which takes me back to the turning point experience of my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church several years ago.

 

[mailmandan]

And you need to study and pray over James 2:24. Not only is Romans 5:1 is true, but also James 2:24 is true. We are justified by works and not by faith alone. This is before God because if you were to read James 1:21, you see it talking about receiving the engrafted word that can save our souls. Also, James talks about how Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the alter. But if you were to read Hebrews 11, it says BY FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the alter. So they are saying the same thing. The works are merely faith. They are the work of faith that Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Also, James says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? Surely not. Also, there was nobody present to watch Abraham sacrifice Isaac. So he was not being justified exclusively before men.

Your eisegesis here culminates in works righteousness/salvation by works which is a critical error!

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

Now prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed exactly what you posted above. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and could not make the distinction between faith (which is the root of salvation) and works (which are the fruit of salvation). Your argument about faith and works lines up with what Roman Catholics teach.

Romans 5:1 says, "justified by faith" and not faith and works. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" here. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:24 -You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only (empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead). James 2:14 sets up the context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) BY FAITH in Genesis 15:6 and BY or "out of" FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22 is not saying the same thing. It's one thing to say that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God) and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and it's another thing to say that by or "out of" faith (many years later) Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. So works are not merely faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. This is absolutely critical to understand! Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonian believer's conversion. The "work" that the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith. Just as in 2 Thessalonians 1:11, deeds are prompted by or "out of" faith but these deeds are not in essence faith itself.

You don’t seem to make a distinction between faith “and” works that “follow” as a "result of" faith and the end result of that is salvation by faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Please read everything that I shared with you very carefully and I hope and pray that this may be your turning point.

 

[Mem]

It's very much a back to front mentality the anti Osas doctrine.

They all claim to be saved which means as of this point there salvation feals assured to them, however they say God could cut them off in the future.

On the grounds that they no longer will abide in Christ or commit a grave sin or no longer repent, all theese things etc.

The back to front part is, if your saved surely you have tasted the fruits surely you know right from wrong, surely the holy spirit will convict you and surely you must be blessed with the fruits or the spirit,

But most of all surely you must have confidence in yourself to not sin a grave sin in the future, or that you will never not abide in Christ, or that you will never fail to repent.

I'm sure this confidence must be automatic for the saved follower of Christ.

I would have thought any other type of mentality would be bordering on a reprobate mind, you know Like the feeling God has left you, as this back to front mentality would be this way inclined if God had left you.

This back to Front mentality is coming from these anti Osas doctrines even tho it hasn't happened for them,

Why argue about a what if. Where is the faith in so much doubt.

I have affectionately termed this mentality the 'do do' disposition, but that does not necessitate that I have adopted any sort of 'don't do' mentality. Rather, relative to that living is in existence as 'to be,' I consider mine a 'be' mentality. I think you're accurate in observing the back to front viewpoint in the former's attitude that being results from doing while the reality is that doing results from being. That is, if you are good, then you will do good.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your eisegesis here culminates in works righteousness/salvation by works which is a critical error!

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

Now prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed exactly what you posted above. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and could not make the distinction between faith (which is the root of salvation) and works (which are the fruit of salvation). Your argument about faith and works lines up with what Roman Catholics teach.

Romans 5:1 says, "justified by faith" and not faith and works. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" here. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:24 -You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only (empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead). James 2:14 sets up the context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) BY FAITH in Genesis 15:6 and BY or "out of" FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22 is not saying the same thing. It's one thing to say that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God) and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and it's another thing to say that by or "out of" faith (many years later) Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. So works are not merely faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. This is absolutely critical to understand! Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonian believer's conversion. The "work" that the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith. Just as in 2 Thessalonians 1:11, deeds are prompted by or "out of" faith but these deeds are not in essence faith itself.

You don’t seem to make a distinction between faith “and” works that “follow” as a "result of" faith and the end result of that is salvation by faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Please read everything that I shared with you very carefully and I hope and pray that this may be your turning point.

I am still baffled.

How an anyone read James 2 to say we are saved by faith plus works. When so many other passages of scripture say the opposite is true

Not to mention. James did not say they had faith, he said the CLAIMED to have faith. That one statement alone destroys their argument, He confirms it later. When he said their faith was dead (lifeless, without power. Mere belief)

Its like in another thread where some wants to talke about Pauls saved by grace. Yet through faith. Then spends paragraph after paragraph talking about works. When that would directly contradict what Paul said in eph 8 - 9.

I am saddened to believe some people will just never get it

 

[Evmur]

Your eisegesis here culminates in works righteousness/salvation by works which is a critical error!

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

Now prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed exactly what you posted above. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and could not make the distinction between faith (which is the root of salvation) and works (which are the fruit of salvation). Your argument about faith and works lines up with what Roman Catholics teach.

Romans 5:1 says, "justified by faith" and not faith and works. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" here. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:24 -You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only (empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead). James 2:14 sets up the context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) BY FAITH in Genesis 15:6 and BY or "out of" FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22 is not saying the same thing. It's one thing to say that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God) and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and it's another thing to say that by or "out of" faith (many years later) Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. So works are not merely faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. This is absolutely critical to understand! Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonian believer's conversion. The "work" that the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith. Just as in 2 Thessalonians 1:11, deeds are prompted by or "out of" faith but these deeds are not in essence faith itself.

You don’t seem to make a distinction between faith “and” works that “follow” as a "result of" faith and the end result of that is salvation by faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Please read everything that I shared with you very carefully and I hope and pray that this may be your turning point.

This is a great point to make, Abraham was justified by works that is to say shown to have believed God. Believed God what?

Abraham was PROVING that he believed God's promise that God was going to bless the world through Isaac, this is where the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead comes from.

 

[Fundaamental]

What's even worse is they believe and claim the ability to meet these said conditions is by their own power. That Jesus saves us and then crosses His fingers in hope that we "be good", and then if they are good enough to reach heaven they can now take the glory for making it for themselves, they obeyed well enough right? They can now boast just like His word tells us we will be able to. Right? Isn't that right? Being saved is 100% all God, but sanctification is 100% by mans will, is exactly what they are teaching. It's just wrong.

it feals that way for me to.

Then for some reason works for salvation is brought into it, which for me I feel as if we shouldn't argue in this false premise as for me this argument only merits a simple answer of no there is no such thing as works for salvation, I feel I should stick to my guns and say what you have, which is no people are simply made to believe salvation is prize that they must win.

Or that it can't be won untill there last breath. ☕🙂

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is a great point to make, Abraham was justified by works that is to say shown to have believed God. Believed God what?

Abraham was PROVING that he believed God's promise that God was going to bless the world through Isaac, this is where the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead comes from.

This is why I think it is important to really study the OT. Get a timeline
He faith was so deep that according to Hebrews


Heb 11: 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense

We need to remember, In gen 15. When God tells us through Moses that Abraham Believed an accounted his faith to him as righteousness. Abraham did not have this much faith yet.

We know for a fact his faith was so weak he commited adultry and had a son from a lady not his wife. He even laughed at God when God said his wife would have a son.

so you can’t read james and the OT and percieve Abraham was saved decades after God said he was. You can only see it as @mailmandan said, that it was proof of his faith. As apposed to those who claimed they too had faith. But would not even do one little item of works.

 

[Fundaamental]

I have affectionately termed this mentality the 'do do' disposition, but that does not necessitate that I have adopted any sort of 'don't do' mentality. Rather, relative to that living is in existence as 'to be,' I consider mine a 'be' mentality. I think you're accurate in observing the back to front viewpoint in the former's attitude that being results from doing while the reality is that doing results from being. That is, if you are good, then you will do good.

I wouldn't call it a do do disposition tho, I would call it being in daily communication with our father who art in heaven under the guidance of our lord Jesus Christ oh an all his saints and and angels, who gives us today are daily bread who leads us not into temptation.

 

[Mem]

I wouldn't call it a do do disposition tho, I would call it being in daily communication with our father who art in heaven under the guidance of our lord Jesus Christ oh an all his saints and and angels, who gives us today are daily bread who leads us not into temptation.

I call the works-based approach the do do one because it sounds like doo doo to me, since our own righteousness is filthy. Even our best works because they are corrupted by whatever impure motivations which might accompany them. I would liken it to offering up roadkill as a sacrifice.

 

[notmyown]

Your eisegesis here culminates in works righteousness/salvation by works which is a critical error!

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

Now prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed exactly what you posted above. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and could not make the distinction between faith (which is the root of salvation) and works (which are the fruit of salvation). Your argument about faith and works lines up with what Roman Catholics teach.

Romans 5:1 says, "justified by faith" and not faith and works. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" here. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:24 -You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only (empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead). James 2:14 sets up the context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) BY FAITH in Genesis 15:6 and BY or "out of" FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22 is not saying the same thing. It's one thing to say that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God) and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and it's another thing to say that by or "out of" faith (many years later) Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. So works are not merely faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. This is absolutely critical to understand! Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonian believer's conversion. The "work" that the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith. Just as in 2 Thessalonians 1:11, deeds are prompted by or "out of" faith but these deeds are not in essence faith itself.

You don’t seem to make a distinction between faith “and” works that “follow” as a "result of" faith and the end result of that is salvation by faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Please read everything that I shared with you very carefully and I hope and pray that this may be your turning point.

Dan, i'm so encouraged by the fact you never tire of the defense and preaching of the Gospel.

 

[notmyown]

That would mean we would have to change Hebrews 12:2 from author and finisher of our faith to author of our faith.

plenty of us don't even believe He's the Author.

 

[Jimbone]

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the process of being unborn again.

I know. I say this a lot because it's true, but I can understand where they get the idea that we can lose salvation from. I know in my journey I thought the same thing for a time, but it is ALL in how you look at God and man's place in creation, and also harmonizing the text, ALL of the text. Our importance in relation to Gods sovereignty, plan, and purpose for His glory seems to become more clear the closer He draws me. When we believe that we hold some kind of power that we don't, this throws a wrench in the gears of how we see everything. In my experience anyway.
They also lose me here because of the complete disregard for the shear power of our Lord that changes us the way it does when we are born again, when I see the way they do not listen or understand what we mean when we say these things, the way they claim so nonchalantly that people can be saved and then walk away from Jesus after having the TRUTH OF GOD and EVERYTHING He did to make it possible, IN TRUTH, and walk away from it while the apostles tell us NOTHING can snatch it away, especially they way they do, really makes me question if they even know that power. Semms hard to KNOW the power of God and hold to what they teach. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Kroogz]

Your eisegesis here culminates in works righteousness/salvation by works which is a critical error!

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

Now prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed exactly what you posted above. I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and could not make the distinction between faith (which is the root of salvation) and works (which are the fruit of salvation). Your argument about faith and works lines up with what Roman Catholics teach.

Romans 5:1 says, "justified by faith" and not faith and works. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" here. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:24 -You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only (empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead). James 2:14 sets up the context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) BY FAITH in Genesis 15:6 and BY or "out of" FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22 is not saying the same thing. It's one thing to say that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God) and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and it's another thing to say that by or "out of" faith (many years later) Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. So works are not merely faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. This is absolutely critical to understand! Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonian believer's conversion. The "work" that the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith. Just as in 2 Thessalonians 1:11, deeds are prompted by or "out of" faith but these deeds are not in essence faith itself.

You don’t seem to make a distinction between faith “and” works that “follow” as a "result of" faith and the end result of that is salvation by faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Please read everything that I shared with you very carefully and I hope and pray that this may be your turning point.

One other point is that James was addressing the 12 tribes. The Jews have faith in God. Does that faith save them? Religion has faith in God. Does that faith save them?

Trusting on The Lord Jesus Christ and His work for us is the only faith that eternally saves.

 

[Fundaamental]

I call the works-based approach the do do one because it sounds like doo doo to me, since our own righteousness is filthy. Even our best works because they are corrupted by whatever impure motivations which might accompany them. I would liken it to offering up roadkill as a sacrifice.

sorry I thought you calling my position a do do lol

 

[Kroogz]

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the process of being unborn again.

They can't. That would be a subjective matter, even they know salvation is an objective truth.

 

[Kroogz]

They all claim to be saved which means as of this point there salvation feals assured to them, however they say God could cut them off in the future.

I disagree. It's never about them being cut off. It is always about you and I being cut off. They are eternally secure. Not you and I.

 

[Cameron143]

I know. I say this a lot because it's true, but I can understand where they get the idea that we can lose salvation from. I know in my journey I thought the same thing for a time, but it is ALL in how you look at God and man's place in creation, and also harmonizing the text, ALL of the text. Our importance in relation to Gods sovereignty, plan, and purpose for His glory seems to become more clear the closer He draws me. When we believe that we hold some kind of power that we don't, this throws a wrench in the gears of how we see everything. In my experience anyway.
They also lose me here because of the complete disregard for the shear power of our Lord that changes us the way it does when we are born again, when I see the way they do not listen or understand what we mean when we say these things, the way they claim so nonchalantly that people can be saved and then walk away from Jesus after having the TRUTH OF GOD and EVERYTHING He did to make it possible, IN TRUTH, and walk away from it while the apostles tell us NOTHING can snatch it away, especially they way they do, really makes me question if they even know that power. Semms hard to KNOW the power of God and hold to what they teach. In my opinion anyway.

They possess a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.
They also possess a zeal, but without knowledge.

 

[HumbleBee]

Those who hate God can choose to do this.

 

[Kroogz]

They possess a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.
They also possess a zeal, but without knowledge.

creature credit zeal rather than Creator credit zeal.

 

[Magenta]

This is simply a man-madeup word and definition. blah blah blah

This, on the other hand, is what God says:
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

- 2 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)

2 Corinthians 12:9-10