Daniel 9 Already Fulfilled
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Whatchagot? ( @Nehemiah6 )
Bear in mind that, because "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11" are the same things [at same time-period--including "earthquakes in divers places and famines and pestilences and nation rising against nation" (etc)--same as in Lk21's section before v.12's "BEFORE ALL THESE"], and Matthew's text calls "all these [things] are the beginning of birth pangs"... not "all these are the beginning of birth pangs... and the beginnings again of birth pangs... and the beginning again of birth pangs...," and so on...
...no, it's all these are the "beginning" of them, see...
(and Paul in 1Th5:1-3 speaks specifically of the INITIAL one of those ["birth pang [SINGULAR]"] when referencing the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" earthly time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, what we call the [7-yr] Tribulation period--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" being the Seals of Rev6 WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that leads up to [and immediately precedes] Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, yet "future" to our present time)
It's not so much a matter of the punctuation or lack thereof, rather, it's what the text itself is conveying in its words:
and when one sees that "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 [only DESCRIBED here in Lk, not labeled]" are the SAME events [SAME time-period] and acknowledges that Matthew says of them "ALL THESE" are "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS," ...even IF one only includes in this "Matt24:7-8 / Mk13:8 / Lk21:10-11" (only that much of it), verse 12 [Lk21] still says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" i.e. "But BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs having just been spoken of in the preceding verses (at the very least, vv.10-11! but I see all 4 verses--8-11--connect with the Seals, not just vv.10-12, but even if one could make the argument that only vv.10-11 are meant, they parallel Matthew's text!)
This MEANS that the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b MUST take place "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth PANGS, sequentially!
...and when examined carefully, the 70ad events are only covered / recorded [besides Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk21:5-6] in the Lk21:12-24a,b section of the Olivet Discourse, and that verse 12 informs us that they [the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b] must take place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs...
... so that one can indeed ascertain the SEQUENCE supplied in these texts. Not by means of the "punctuation" or lack thereof, which has nothing to do with how the SEQUENCE ISSUES are laid out in these texts.
Hope that helps. = )
...no, it's all these are the "beginning" of them, see...
(and Paul in 1Th5:1-3 speaks specifically of the INITIAL one of those ["birth pang [SINGULAR]"] when referencing the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" earthly time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, what we call the [7-yr] Tribulation period--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" being the Seals of Rev6 WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that leads up to [and immediately precedes] Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, yet "future" to our present time)
It's not so much a matter of the punctuation or lack thereof, rather, it's what the text itself is conveying in its words:
and when one sees that "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 [only DESCRIBED here in Lk, not labeled]" are the SAME events [SAME time-period] and acknowledges that Matthew says of them "ALL THESE" are "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS," ...even IF one only includes in this "Matt24:7-8 / Mk13:8 / Lk21:10-11" (only that much of it), verse 12 [Lk21] still says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" i.e. "But BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs having just been spoken of in the preceding verses (at the very least, vv.10-11! but I see all 4 verses--8-11--connect with the Seals, not just vv.10-12, but even if one could make the argument that only vv.10-11 are meant, they parallel Matthew's text!)
This MEANS that the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b MUST take place "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth PANGS, sequentially!
...and when examined carefully, the 70ad events are only covered / recorded [besides Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk21:5-6] in the Lk21:12-24a,b section of the Olivet Discourse, and that verse 12 informs us that they [the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b] must take place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs...
... so that one can indeed ascertain the SEQUENCE supplied in these texts. Not by means of the "punctuation" or lack thereof, which has nothing to do with how the SEQUENCE ISSUES are laid out in these texts.
Hope that helps. = )
Think how Romans 11:27 says (in its context, mind you) "For this is my covenant UNTO THEM [/Israel], WHEN I shall take away THEIR sins"
Of course, Christ (and no one else).
[presently, it says, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" - v.28... but v.27's "shall" is yet future]
Of course, Christ (and no one else).
[presently, it says, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" - v.28... but v.27's "shall" is yet future]
I'm having trouble reading your formatting, TDW...so I'm going to list what I perceive it's saying without the formatting. Correct me if I'm wrong:
[TDW quote]
all these [things] are the beginning of birth pangs
not...
all these are the beginning of birth pangs...
and the beginnings again of birth pangs...
and the beginning again of birth pangs...,
no (rather)...
it's all these are the "beginning" of them.
[end quote]
It seems you're making a point that no one disputes. All three accounts testify to the same series of events beginning. Agreed. What it also seems like you're saying, however, is everything - including the destruction of Jerusalem - is the beginning of sorrows (or "birth pangs" to use similar terms). While an argument can be made in support of this when it comes to the Messiah's appearance, remember that was the 2nd question asked. That was not the first question asked. Messiah was dealing with the first question first.
The Olivet Discourse isn't exclusively about the reappearance of the Messiah. The first question Messiah answered was when will the destruction of the Temple occur? And it's in this context that Messiah shares what was to happen beforehand. So the destruction of the temple can't be beginning birth pangs for itself.
...and here it seems you're using 1 Thess 5:1-3 to say that the first/initial birth pang is "sudden destruction". Again, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but there's nothing in the passage that indicates destruction is the first birth pang. It just describes sudden destruction as a woman in travail (which we'll label as "birth pangs" to keep the same language).
1 Thess 5:1-3 [brackets added]
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as [birth pangs] upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...and it's sudden and immediate only for those who are in darkness, as the rest of the passage reads:
1 Thess 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
For those who are not in darkness, destruction will not be sudden and immediate, the implication being that those of the light/day will see the signs/events leading up to the destruction...which brings us back to the Olivet Discourse. His disciples were of the light/day, so the destruction wouldn't be the first event for them. Messiah lists everything that was to happen before the destruction because that was their question: when will the destruction happen. Otherwise, it is like saying "When you see the destruction of the temple that is when the temple will be destroyed."
This is a bit of a composition fallacy, though, where we're claiming that "because it's true for the one it's true for them all", taking a single witness' testimony. Indeed, it's true for Luke but not true for Matthew and Mark. But there's a linguistic change in Luke that doesn't match the other testimonies.
I think it would help to recite these passages out loud, like actually hearing them spoken instead of just reading them, because we still construct sentences the way they're shared in Luke, with parenthetical statements and jumping ahead in a sequence before backtracking.
Question: You mentioned the seals of Revelation 6. Do you believe seals 1-7 are the same prophesied events as those listed in the Olivet Discourse?
[TDW quote]
all these [things] are the beginning of birth pangs
not...
all these are the beginning of birth pangs...
and the beginnings again of birth pangs...
and the beginning again of birth pangs...,
no (rather)...
it's all these are the "beginning" of them.
[end quote]
It seems you're making a point that no one disputes. All three accounts testify to the same series of events beginning. Agreed. What it also seems like you're saying, however, is everything - including the destruction of Jerusalem - is the beginning of sorrows (or "birth pangs" to use similar terms). While an argument can be made in support of this when it comes to the Messiah's appearance, remember that was the 2nd question asked. That was not the first question asked. Messiah was dealing with the first question first.
The Olivet Discourse isn't exclusively about the reappearance of the Messiah. The first question Messiah answered was when will the destruction of the Temple occur? And it's in this context that Messiah shares what was to happen beforehand. So the destruction of the temple can't be beginning birth pangs for itself.
...and here it seems you're using 1 Thess 5:1-3 to say that the first/initial birth pang is "sudden destruction". Again, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but there's nothing in the passage that indicates destruction is the first birth pang. It just describes sudden destruction as a woman in travail (which we'll label as "birth pangs" to keep the same language).
1 Thess 5:1-3 [brackets added]
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as [birth pangs] upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...and it's sudden and immediate only for those who are in darkness, as the rest of the passage reads:
1 Thess 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
For those who are not in darkness, destruction will not be sudden and immediate, the implication being that those of the light/day will see the signs/events leading up to the destruction...which brings us back to the Olivet Discourse. His disciples were of the light/day, so the destruction wouldn't be the first event for them. Messiah lists everything that was to happen before the destruction because that was their question: when will the destruction happen. Otherwise, it is like saying "When you see the destruction of the temple that is when the temple will be destroyed."
This is a bit of a composition fallacy, though, where we're claiming that "because it's true for the one it's true for them all", taking a single witness' testimony. Indeed, it's true for Luke but not true for Matthew and Mark. But there's a linguistic change in Luke that doesn't match the other testimonies.
I think it would help to recite these passages out loud, like actually hearing them spoken instead of just reading them, because we still construct sentences the way they're shared in Luke, with parenthetical statements and jumping ahead in a sequence before backtracking.
Question: You mentioned the seals of Revelation 6. Do you believe seals 1-7 are the same prophesied events as those listed in the Olivet Discourse?
Let's start here ^ .
Where Luke 21:12 states, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," one must look back in the text to determine what "ALL THESE" refers to (that the following passage / events must PRECEDE)...
so in verses 10-11, we see the things that the other events further down in the passage MUST PRECEDE, which verses 10-11 say:
"Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And [G5037] great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and [G5037] fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 BUT BEFORE ALL THESE..." [the following text... the text which follows... are the items/events which must PRECEDE these]
The events of vv.10-11 ^ are the SAME items that Matt24:7 spoke of (but Lk adds the part in blue, connecting it with the "G5037" particle, and the "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" INCLUDES that also [in same time-slot]), and in verse 8 [Mt24] calls these "the BEGINNING of birth pangs"
[note: not the sum total of all "birth pangs" which will follow on from those "BEGINNING" of birth pangs, and lead up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]
IOW, "the beginning of birth pangs" are a set... if that makes sense...
...so all of Luke 21:10-11 ALSO [and I believe vv.8-9 also] take place sequentially after the events in the next section, the 70ad events that must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [BoBPs]," sequentially.
(Sequentially... though not immediately "before".)
Make sense?
Basically, COMPARE Lk21:10-11 with Matt24:7 (same events), and note that Lk21:12 says OF THEM, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" [the next section tells what must PRECEDE ALL THESE, which is the 70ad events--they must come "BEFORE"]
[on a slightly different note: the "birth pangs" take place WITHIN the (future) 7-yr Trib, yes; the "BEGINNING" of them correspond to the SEALS of Rev6, ALL occurring WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period (Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1) speaks to, referring to the 7-yr Trib, i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book; This means that ALL of Matthew 24:4-onward [BPs, etc] is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"; Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [in the air]" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse, but of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age and that specific, LIMITED time-period (7-yrs) that immediately precedes and leads up to THAT]
Where Luke 21:12 states, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," one must look back in the text to determine what "ALL THESE" refers to (that the following passage / events must PRECEDE)...
so in verses 10-11, we see the things that the other events further down in the passage MUST PRECEDE, which verses 10-11 say:
"Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And [G5037] great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and [G5037] fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 BUT BEFORE ALL THESE..." [the following text... the text which follows... are the items/events which must PRECEDE these]
The events of vv.10-11 ^ are the SAME items that Matt24:7 spoke of (but Lk adds the part in blue, connecting it with the "G5037" particle, and the "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" INCLUDES that also [in same time-slot]), and in verse 8 [Mt24] calls these "the BEGINNING of birth pangs"
[note: not the sum total of all "birth pangs" which will follow on from those "BEGINNING" of birth pangs, and lead up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]
IOW, "the beginning of birth pangs" are a set... if that makes sense...
...so all of Luke 21:10-11 ALSO [and I believe vv.8-9 also] take place sequentially after the events in the next section, the 70ad events that must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [BoBPs]," sequentially.
(Sequentially... though not immediately "before".)
Make sense?
Basically, COMPARE Lk21:10-11 with Matt24:7 (same events), and note that Lk21:12 says OF THEM, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" [the next section tells what must PRECEDE ALL THESE, which is the 70ad events--they must come "BEFORE"]
[on a slightly different note: the "birth pangs" take place WITHIN the (future) 7-yr Trib, yes; the "BEGINNING" of them correspond to the SEALS of Rev6, ALL occurring WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period (Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1) speaks to, referring to the 7-yr Trib, i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book; This means that ALL of Matthew 24:4-onward [BPs, etc] is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"; Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [in the air]" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse, but of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age and that specific, LIMITED time-period (7-yrs) that immediately precedes and leads up to THAT]
According to Lk21:12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," the SEQUENCE / ORDER is this:
--70ad events (must take place "BEFORE...")...
--..."the beginning of birth pangs" (which come SEQUENTIALLY after the 70ad events spoken of in Lk21:12-24a,b)
--[Matthew then tells what comes AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs"] Matt24:9-12 (keeping in mind the consistent, "proleptic 'you'");
--then Matt24:15, 21 (etc)--the AOD, upon which the "GREAT tribulation" (second half of 7-yr trib) commences (1260 days are remaining to Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19)
--70ad events (must take place "BEFORE...")...
--..."the beginning of birth pangs" (which come SEQUENTIALLY after the 70ad events spoken of in Lk21:12-24a,b)
--[Matthew then tells what comes AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs"] Matt24:9-12 (keeping in mind the consistent, "proleptic 'you'");
--then Matt24:15, 21 (etc)--the AOD, upon which the "GREAT tribulation" (second half of 7-yr trib) commences (1260 days are remaining to Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19)
Especially with regard to Israel ("thy [Daniel's] people") and Jerusalem ("thy [Daniel's] holy city"), which is what the TIME-PROPHECY in Dan9:24[-27]'s 70 Weeks "ARE DETERMINED UPON"
[if the passage had meant a straight "490 years," it could have just stated "490 years," but it doesn't... it uses a very unique wording, and the context is sequentially laid out; Also, because the "70 YEARS" [captivity] summed to something close to 69 actual years, ascertained by which king reigned when, then the "70 WEEKS / 70 SEVENS" time-prophecy is factored similarly (and one of the reasons for the wording saying "70 sevens are determined upon...")]
[if the passage had meant a straight "490 years," it could have just stated "490 years," but it doesn't... it uses a very unique wording, and the context is sequentially laid out; Also, because the "70 YEARS" [captivity] summed to something close to 69 actual years, ascertained by which king reigned when, then the "70 WEEKS / 70 SEVENS" time-prophecy is factored similarly (and one of the reasons for the wording saying "70 sevens are determined upon...")]