The Trinity

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Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#641
Mar 1, 2022
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#641
uncle_mike said:
No, I can perfectly see what You're claiming. Sin does not separate us from God. Yet, the Lake of Fire will be full of people in the same spiritual condition.
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It seems you can see what you believe is true. You only took into account part of what I said. Sin does separate the believer from God in the sense that they lose fellowship and communion. But it does not separate the believer from God in terms of position or sonship. This I stated earlier.
I am curious...Romans 8 deals with the subject of what is true of those who are in Christ and not under condemnation. Towards the end of the chapter a litany of things are mentioned that might possibly separate the believer from the love of God in Christ Jesus. What do you believe can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#642
Dec 5, 2023
759
293
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#642
uncle_mike said:
If You say so. Hebrews says they have the Heavenly Gift of the Holy Spirit. If you think someone not regenerated can have the Holy Spirit, I want nothing to do with your beliefs.
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That was just scripture. How can you say you read them, and say that I think they were not saved? I didn't say a word. They are without question saved individuals.

And it is impossible for man to bring them back through our instructions to them. But with God it is possible. His discipline.

Your not going to change your mind about this, it is impossible for man to change your mind or mine, but God most certainly can.
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#643
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
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#643
Cameron143 said:
It seems you can see what you believe is true. You only took into account part of what I said. Sin does separate the believer from God in the sense that they lose fellowship and communion. But it does not separate the believer from God in terms of position or sonship. This I stated earlier.
I am curious...Romans 8 deals with the subject of what is true of those who are in Christ and not under condemnation. Towards the end of the chapter a litany of things are mentioned that might possibly separate the believer from the love of God in Christ Jesus. What do you believe can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?
Click to expand...
No, I am reading the way Hebrews is written out. Why would I not accept it since it was purposefully written that way? I am thinking here if we were discussing the Verse, Jesus wept, there would be 20 interpretations under the false definition of Rightly Dividing. And it only means, Jesus wept. Throw in "Rejoice Evermore." Probably can get 20 interpretations with how it appears Rightly Divided is being used on this forum.
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#644
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
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#644
Kroogz said:
That was just scripture. How can you say you read them, and say that I think they were not saved? I didn't say a word. They are without question saved individuals.

And it is impossible for man to bring them back through our instructions to them. But with God it is possible. His discipline.

Your not going to change your mind about this, it is impossible for man to change your mind or mine, but God most certainly can.
Click to expand...
Because it said they had the Heavenly Gift of the Holy Spirit. Why would I think anything else?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#648
Mar 1, 2022
18,893
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#648
uncle_mike said:
No, I am reading the way Hebrews is written out. Why would I not accept it since it was purposefully written that way? I am thinking here if we were discussing the Verse, Jesus wept, there would be 20 interpretations under the false definition of Rightly Dividing. And it only means, Jesus wept. Throw in "Rejoice Evermore." Probably can get 20 interpretations with how it appears Rightly Divided is being used on this forum.
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I'm trying to establish a truth, before going into the verses in Hebrews. There are many verses in scripture that on their face seem to contradict one another. We know the word of God is infallible. Thus, we know there is no inconsistency when it is correctly understood.
When I come across verses that appear incongruent, I evaluate which perceived position agrees most genuinely with the whole of scripture. That has led me to believe that someone who is truly saved cannot lose their salvation.
The verses you shared seem to disagree with my understanding of security for the believer. So in widening the scope of the discussion, I'm doing 2 things. I'm showing you one of many passages of scripture that informs my understanding, and asking you to consider your position in light of truth found in another part of scripture.
You are under no obligation to respond. But it will be a fruitless task of explaining the verses in Hebrews if you don't understand why those verses cannot be referring to saved individuals.
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#649
Dec 14, 2023
390
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#649
Cameron143 said:
I'm trying to establish a truth, before going into the verses in Hebrews. There are many verses in scripture that on their face seem to contradict one another. We know the word of God is infallible. Thus, we know there is no inconsistency when it is correctly understood.
When I come across verses that appear incongruent, I evaluate which perceived position agrees most genuinely with the whole of scripture. That has led me to believe that someone who is truly saved cannot lose their salvation.
The verses you shared seem to disagree with my understanding of security for the believer. So in widening the scope of the discussion, I'm doing 2 things. I'm showing you one of many passages of scripture that informs my understanding, and asking you to consider your position in light of truth found in another part of scripture.
You are under no obligation to respond. But it will be a fruitless task of explaining the verses in Hebrews if you don't understand why those verses cannot be referring to saved individuals.
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I only see You establishing Your opinion. I presented the Verses and since then You have given Your personal opinion.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#650
Jul 3, 2015
59,816
29,195
113
#650
uncle_mike said:
No one who is not saved could ever experience the Heavenly Gift of the Holy Spirit.
Those Verses make that specific distinction. So these are "saved people."
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What do you mean by "heavenly gift of the Holy Spirit"? It s He Who convicts the world of sin. That is a very personal experience.
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#651
Dec 14, 2023
390
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#651
Kroogz said:
The are saved individuals. I don't doubt that.
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You believe they are saved. But which part, if any, do You disagree about then? Do You agree that it's impossible for them to reestablish repentance like the Verse claims or something else?
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#652
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
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#652
Magenta said:
What do you mean by "heavenly gift of the Holy Spirit"? It s He Who convicts the world of sin. That is a very personal experience.
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Just using how the Verse is written. "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away"
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#653
Jul 3, 2015
59,816
29,195
113
#653
uncle_mike said:
Just using how the Verse is written. "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away"
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uncle_mike said:
No one who is not saved could ever experience the Heavenly Gift of the Holy Spirit.
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So when someone of the world is convicted of their sin before God, they are already in a saved state? Before coming to faith?
 
Fundaamental

Fundaamental

Well-known member
#654
Mar 17, 2023
3,289
421
83
#654
Cameron143 said:
I'm trying to establish a truth, before going into the verses in Hebrews. There are many verses in scripture that on their face seem to contradict one another. We know the word of God is infallible. Thus, we know there is no inconsistency when it is correctly understood.
When I come across verses that appear incongruent, I evaluate which perceived position agrees most genuinely with the whole of scripture. That has led me to believe that someone who is truly saved cannot lose their salvation.
The verses you shared seem to disagree with my understanding of security for the believer. So in widening the scope of the discussion, I'm doing 2 things. I'm showing you one of many passages of scripture that informs my understanding, and asking you to consider your position in light of truth found in another part of scripture.
You are under no obligation to respond. But it will be a fruitless task of explaining the verses in Hebrews if you don't understand why those verses cannot be referring to saved individuals.
Click to expand...
is the hebrews verse in discussion about the verse that says it' impossible to bring them back to repentance ?

I'm guessing it is because that one is always brought up by the cherry pickers
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#656
Dec 14, 2023
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65
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#656
Magenta said:
So when someone of the world is convicted of their sin before God, they are already in a saved state? Before coming to faith?
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These people have fallen away, so they are completely saved and past the point of regeneration. Read the end of the Verse I have pasted for you, again. "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away"
 
Fundaamental

Fundaamental

Well-known member
#657
Mar 17, 2023
3,289
421
83
#657
uncle_mike said:
Just using how the Verse is written. "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away"
Click to expand...
ah I have a good view point on this verse,

I will only discuss it with Cameron tho if you don't mind 🙂
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#658
Jul 3, 2015
59,816
29,195
113
#658
uncle_mike said:
These people have fallen away, so they are completely saved and past the point of regeneration. Read the end of the Verse I have pasted for you, again. "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away"
Click to expand...
Oh, I see, my apologies... I missed part of that conversation and just jumped in without reading back.

That issue is often discussed, though- as to at what point one is saved. Some say we are saved before
we come to a saving faith. I guess saying "saving faith" for them is not even an appropriate phrase.
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#659
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
28
#659
Fundaamental said:
ah I have a good view point on this verse,

I will only discuss it with Cameron tho if you don't mind 🙂
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Why quote me then? You clearly are making a spectacle of yourself. Generating hypothesis and calling people someone else. If a sinner was reading this, why would they think that your example is Godly?
 
U

uncle_mike

Banned
#660
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
28
#660
Magenta said:
Oh, I see, my apologies... I missed part of that conversation and just jumped in without reading back.

That issue is often discussed, though- as to at what point one is saved. Some say we are saved before
we come to a saving faith. I guess saying "saving faith" for them is not even an appropriate phrase.
Click to expand...
It's quite ok. I do not mind explaining something so it becomes clearer to understand. As You see, I am just quoting the Verse as it is word for word and not adding any opinion to it.
 
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