Sunday Worship?
- Thread starter DeceptionHacker
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N
Niki7
Guest
and I quote:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
love, Paul (colossians 2)
P.S. Regarding the Sabbath.
Rest is a state of being under the covenant between God the Son and God the Father.
Rest is a single day under the Law.
Today, if we hear His voice we may enter rest. "Today" may be any day and every day. Rest is an economy not the absence of work. For those in Christ it is an existence not a moment.
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Rest is a state of being under the covenant between God the Son and God the Father.
Rest is a single day under the Law.
Today, if we hear His voice we may enter rest. "Today" may be any day and every day. Rest is an economy not the absence of work. For those in Christ it is an existence not a moment.
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
N
Niki7
Guest
to no avail
this theory has been lovingly postulated many times here and everywhere Christians gather
it's still a big resounding nope. we are changed by the Holy Spirit in us. people are really not the cute cuddly beings so many of us think we are....the Bible states all our righteousness is as filthy rags....and look that up to get the full meaning
our desires change because of God and not because we suddenly decide to tighten the belt and sport a halo
What did Jesus say about keeping the law can you quote? Does Jesus words and teaching mean anything anymore? Jesus is the ultimate authority on all things forever.and one more thing....yeah I know...shad up already
the Bible says people are cursed to follow the law...wondering how that affects our walk with God if we keep saying that's not true
Blessings
Hi there Aaron, nice to meet you.......happy to address the scriptures you references.
God made individual covenants until Israel and with Israel it was the first covenant He made with a nation, so no it was not like the others in that He made, and Israel is just a name God gave His people which is both literal and metaphorically.
God does not call His covenant the Ten Commandments the 'Sinai covenant' He called it My covenant Deut 4:13, just like He calls the Ten Commandments My commandments Exo 20:6
No doubt Father and Son had a plan of salvation if man sinned.
The law that defines sin that both Paul and Jesus say is the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 is not the same law that was added because of sin, where is the sense in that. The law that was added until the Seed shall come was animal sacrifices in the law of Moses that was a placeholder pointing forward to Jesus until the Seed shall come as the blood of animals is not perfect for the forgiveness of sins Hebrews 10:1-22, but the blood of Jesus is for cleansing of all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 so now instead of sacrificing animals to an earthy priest we can go directly to Jesus when we sin. The Ten Commandments is like a mirror Romans 3:20 and all it does is shows us our sin and our need for Jesus if we cover our sins, we can't prosper but if we confess and forsake our sins we can go directly to Jesus for His mercy grace and sanctification. Pro 28:13
How do we follow Jesus? Jesus kept the Ten Commandments and said if we keep our rules/traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten saying their heart is far from Him (opposite of the NC Heb 10:16) and one worships in vain and tells us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments again quoting from the Ten Mat 5:19-30 and the commandments to keep for eternal life Mat 19:17-19 so how do we follow Jesus but not have faith to follow His teachings? That doesn't sound like faith to me.
Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21, not in sin.
Let's continue...
You seem to be writing in the Ten Commandments into these verses when scripture doesn't. As previously demonstrated the law that was added due to breaking the Ten Commandments was animal sacrifices Hebrews 10:1-22 which ended at the Cross as Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb 1 Cor 5:7. Sin is still the same in the NC as it was in the OC breaking God's holy commandments Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 sin separated us from God Isa 59:2 Jesus is trying to reconcile us and asks for so little- if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 same thing He said right in the Ten Exo 20:6 while overcoming sin can be tough Jesus doesn't make us do it alone John 14:15-18 but it does require our cooperation and through Jesus He can change us from the inside out so we want to keep His commandments walk in His Spirit free from sin and that change reconciles us back to God. Rev 22:14
I wrote that for your instruction. Because you teach the Law as "valid for the believer today" you're unable to teach anything.
Lead a horse to water something something.
My instruction comes from God's Word. Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten as one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30 but instead we should teach others to keep His commandments , I have faith in Him to mean what He says. Thanks for the chat.
Jesus of Nazareth did in fact observe the Sabbath. But He also frequently healed on Sabbath days (and was condemned for it). But He also said that He is LORD of the Sabbath. Which meant that He would decide how the Sabbath commandment would apply to Christians.
When He cried "It Is Finished" on the cross, God tore down the temple veil at the same time. Does this have any bearing on Sabbath-keeping? Absolutely. Both these things meant that Christ had fulfilled the Law, and brought in the New Covenant. And under the New Covenant He established "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week) as the Christian Sabbath.
Even though the Sabbath commandment is in the Ten Commandments, it is also SPECIFICALLY given to Israel as a "sign" between God and Israel: Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
But there is no such commandment given to the Church. So Sabbatarians are in fact opposing God by insisting on going back to the Law of Moses. And since Paul called the Sabbath a shadow, it is hardly likely that he would insist on Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath. According to Hebrews, believers have entered into the Sabbath of God. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Heb 4:3)
Do you have a scripture Text for this? Jesus said heaven and earth would pass before one dot of the law would change. Heaven and earth are still here, therefore so is God's holy law.
Where exactly did God say the Sabbath ended? The Lord says it never ends Isa 66:22-23 and you need to read the next verse in Hebrews that tells us when God's rest is, the same day He gave to man to rest Exo 20:8-11 as we are made in His image to follow Him.
Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
Those who rest in Him ALSO cease from their works as God did from His, on the seventh day Hebrews 4:10 Heb 4:4
Which is why the Sabbath-rest remains for God's people Heb 4:9 and the rest in this verse literally means keeping of the Sabbath!
Your misapplied quotation from Christ has absolutely no bearing on the subject. And yes, here is the Scripture on which you should meditate: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet... (Rev 1:10) Did John conjure up the Lord's Day on his own, or did Christ give the Lord's Day to the Church?
Do you believe that the writings of Paul are actually from God the Holy Spirit. If so meditate on this: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col 2:16,17) The 7th day Sabbath was a mere shadow of the eternal rest of the believer in God's eternal Sabbath. And as far as Christians are concerned, all "holy days" from the Law of Moses (which included new moons) are shadows.
You said, "Whenever the term day or night is used singularly in the Bible it can mean all or part of a day or evening (night). But the term night (evening) and day together always indicates a 24 hour period."I am going to offer you a different time line …but along the same premise that you have stated.
The Sign
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There are many scripture (19) that give reference to Jesus being raised the third day …. but this account in Matthew ….. Jesus states that He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That was the sign to the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees to whom He was speaking.
Whenever the term day or night is used singularly in the Bible it can mean all or part of a day or evening (night). But the term night (evening) and day together always indicates a 24 hour period. In Gen 1:5, 8,13,19,&23 …. God sets the standard for a full day… of which Jesus was fully aware of as noted in John 11:9.
There are those who try to qualify Jesus’s statement of 3 days and 3 nights with their own twisting and reference to an idiom … The problem is --- they are trying to qualify man’s tradition to fit their belief …but it doesn’t work that way. God sets the standard for truth …not man! …..Man can be right and they can be wrong…. the only way to verify what man states…. is to check it with what God says. My personal belief…. the things I have learned … are irrelevant if they do not line up with the Word of God …and for me…. the Word is the final authority for Truth.
We can track the precise day that Jesus was crucified by counting forward or backward. Forward from John 12:1 or backward from the Passover (which is Nisan 14) or The feast of unleavened bread which was Nisan 15 ....at sunset of the 14th….. (as that is when the next day begins.)
Passover is the 14th but the Passover meal is eaten at the beginning of the 15th (evening). The feast of unleavened bread lasts for 7 days and the first day (Thursday 15th) and last day (Wednesday 21st) of the feast are high days …{that is not 4/20 with the devils lettuce} A high day is a special sabbath as dictated by God → Num 28:18 and Num 28:25 . A special sabbath is different from the weekly sabbath which falls on Saturday. A special sabbath would be like when Christmas (which is always celebrated on 12/25) fell on a Wednesday …it would a special sabbath …but does not negate the weekly sabbath on our Sunday. The special sabbath (high day) for the first day of the feast of unleavened bread (Thursday Nisan 15) is noted in John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) …
CONTINUED
This is used as evidence that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for exactly 72 hours.
Let me present two arguments against that idea as food for thought. First, how do we know that "the term night (evening) and day together always indicates a 24 hour period."? In 1 Samuel 30:12-13 we find the phrase "three days and three nights" equated with "three days ago", which does not explicitly say but certainly implies that even when the term night and day were used together, they might refer to a part of a 24 hour period rather than the whole thing.
Second, if Jesus had to be in the heart of the earth for literally 72 hours, he would have had to have been raised on the fourth day. But Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus was raised on the third day (Luke 24:7, 24:21; 1 Corinthians 15:4).
If we take the ancient languages and idioms in a modern English sense, couldn't that lead to contradictions in our conclusions?
Where in Revelation 1:10 says the first day? God decaled His holy day both spoken and written Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. And He calls it My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 Seems clear to me.
God deemed all other days working days Exo 20:9 except for the seventh day Sabbath. This is what He says when we keep a holy day as a common day.
Eze 22:26 Her priests have [a]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them
Do you mind if I add in the context?
Colossians 2:14 gives the context, which sadly most ignore.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6, finger written by God alone Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 not handwritten by Moses. The Sabbath is holy and blessed by God which is not the definition of contrary or against and once God blesses something like He did the seventh day Sabbath man cannot reverse Num 23:20 and Col 2:17 show this shadow sabbath(s) as there are more than one Sabbath in the scripture and Paul makes clear we understand it's not the weekly Sabbath commandment that started at Creation so can't be a shadow of anything but the ceremonial sabbath(s) ordinances which came after the fall of man that has to do with food and drink offerings which is the context of this passage as it points to Jesus who became our Sacrificial Lamb for sin offerings Heb 10:1-22. Sin is the same in the OC as it is the NC the transgression of the Ten Commandments Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin.
Plus obviously not referring to the weekly Sabbath as the apostles all kept every Sabbath Acts 18:4 Acts 13:42-22for decades after the Cross and will be kept for eternity for God's saints. Isa 66:22-23
PS You seem to be familiar with my first argument when you say "There are those who try to qualify Jesus’s statement of 3 days and 3 nights with their own twisting and reference to an idiom … The problem is --- they are trying to qualify man’s tradition to fit their belief …but it doesn’t work that way. God sets the standard for truth …not man! "
But isn't that to ignore the fact that there are idioms in Hebrew and Aramaic, and that God set His standard for truth in those languages, not in modern English? And by what justification do you say people who use that argument are the ones twisting the meaning? Maybe you are the one twisting the meaning to fit your belief based on your interpretation.
So true. Jesus is showing us the way, not only in teachings but how He lived. Follow Him, He will lead us on the narrow path and back to reconciliation Rev 22:14
PSS For what it is worth I also believe that the Sabbath was never changed to Sunday, and I would like to point out that I am not trying to enter the larger discussion you are having since I am not qualified to do so; I am only asking questions about the arguments concerning the sign of Jonas. Remember also that although this was a specific sign to the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees, they spoke the ancient language and not modern English just as Jesus did.
you argued that the ceremonial sabbath observation law wasn't "added because of transgression" per Galatians 3.
i pointed out that the scripture has no record of it being commanded until Exodus 16 and Exodus 16 takes place because of transgression.
the rest described in Hebrews 4 is Christ, not ceremonial weekly cessation of activity.
just as under the Law sin is never ultimately dealt with, but the priest must continually make offering year after year, there is no rest from endless ceremony.
but as Christ offered Himself once for all, in Him also is true rest, as the passage says, He spoke. of another day calling it "Today"