The Trinity

Obedience · Dec 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

If you must think so, I can only quote this scripture to explain why.

Don't you wonder why God can't appear in everyone's life? Many unbelievers do not believe because they have not seen God with their own eyes. So why do you think this is? Why doesn't God want to appear in front of them? Is it because disobedient people die when they see God, or is it because God doesn't want to see them die?

Think about it.

Obedience · Dec 12, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

Obeying is good, but should we just ignore about knowing Him?:

What saith Paul, Inspired of God, to the carnal Corinthians who thought
they "were obeying the Word Of God," about the 'gifts of the Spirit'
[they were actually abusing]?:

1Co_2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing

among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified."

How about no longer knowing Him as 'The Humble Servant' on the
earth, But Now As The Risen and Glorified Lord, and Head Of The
Heavenly Church, Which Is His Body?:

2Co_5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after

the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after

the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more."

+

Eph_1:22 "And hath put all things under His Feet, and gave

Him to be The Head over all things to the church"

+

Col_1:18 "And He is The Head of the Body, the church: Who

is The Beginning, The Firstborn from the dead; that in all

things He might have The Preeminence."

And further knowledge of Him:

Php_3:10 "That I may know Him, and The Power of His

Resurrection, and the fellowship of His Sufferings, being

made conformable unto His Death"

2Ti_1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things:

nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know Whom I have

believed, and am persuaded that He Is Able to keep that

which I have committed unto Him against that day."

How about knowing Him As "The God Of Vengeance"?:

Heb_10:30 "For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance

belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.

And again, The Lord Shall Judge His people."

(cp Isaiah 61:12; Nahum 1:2)

How is that we know we are Correctly obeying Him and His Word,
when we have not Correctly identified Him?

In which case there remains the Triple problem of another Jesus,
shown in post 455, Correct?:

The Lord Jesus Christ not Correctly Identified?:

Tit_1:16 "They profess that they ↑ know God; ↑ but in works

they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and

unto every good work reprobate."

Conclusion: It is Biblically Important to:

Know Him As The Center of The Triune GodHead!

And obey His Word!!:

2Co_13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;

prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how

that Jesus Christ [ God ] is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Amen.

I never say that Jesus is not God, what I was want to show that Jesus is the only perfect one made by God, made in the image of God.

Have you questioned whether God is limited,
God could not create man in the image of God.
So God created Jesus in the image of God,so Jesus is God,but human is still human, because human and God are not one, Jesus and God are one which is the way of life.

CorrectiveLens · Dec 12, 2023

Obedience said:

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Obedience said:
I am not confused about whether to worship God or Jesus, because they are one, and that is the way of life, they teach us the way of life.

John 17: 20- 24 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory (Holy Spirit) which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The Son is the temple of the Father, and because we are part of the spiritual body of Christ, we are also the temple of the Father and the Son. The Father glorified Jesus when He ascended into heaven by giving Him a spiritual body composed of souls who have received the Father's Holy Spirit through belief in His Son. It is the Father that gives us to Christ and we become one with the Father and Son because it is through their Spirit that our lives are directed and swayed by them. That is how man is made in the image of God (through their Holy Spirit).
Christ being one with the Father means that Christ is filled with the Holy Spirit of the Father. We become one with the Father and Son when we receive the Father's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ. Too bad that you don't see that being one with the Father does not mean being the Father but being led by the Holy Spirit of the Father (as Jesus was and as we should be).

Obedience · Dec 12, 2023

I agree.

CS1 · Dec 12, 2023

Cameron143 said:

The blood of Jesus

CS1 · Dec 12, 2023

PaulThomson said:

What was the message about who Jesus is that the first Christians preached as their first presentation of the gospel to the unchurched?

Let's look at Paul's evangelism to the Jews and God-fearing gentiles in Antioch.

15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23Of THIS MAN'S SEED hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel A SAVIOUR, JESUS:

24When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew HIM not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that HE SHOULD BE SLAIN.

29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of HIM, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30But God raised HIM from the dead:

31And HE was seen many days of them which came up with HIM from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art MY SON, this day have I begotten THEE.

34And as concerning that he raised HIM up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give YOU the sure mercies of David.

35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.

36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37But HE, WHOM GOD RAISED AGAIN, saw no corruption.

38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through THIS MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And BY HIM all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Jesus is presented as A MAN who fulfilled the prophecies about a particular MAN God promised to send. Nowhere is it explained that this MAN is also GOD, and some of the audience received the gospel and they were encouraged by Paul to continue in the grace they had believed in and received.

If Paul converted people without preaching "Jesus is God" out of the gate, but they came to understand Jesus is God as they matured in Christ, why are religious people demanding that Jesus is "God" be preached and believed in before a hearer can truly become born again and a member within the body of Christ?

That is not true. Jesus came as a man and revealed HE is GOD.

You might as well rip out the Gospel of John. 1cor 15, and the prophet Isiah. You have taken Paul's words out of Context. FYI, Jews could not fully understand JESUS AS GOD BECAUSE THEY DID NOT ACCEPT HIM AS THE MASSIAH.

Those who come to Jesus must believe that he is a rewarder of them that Seek earnestly.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 12, 2023

CS1 said:

Jews could not fully understand JESUS AS GOD BECAUSE THEY DID NOT ACCEPT HIM AS THE MASSIAH.[/QUOTE]Good point. But here is something which most Christians are not aware of. Prior to the coming of Christ the Jewish rabbi who were studying the OT understood from Daniel 7, Isaiah, Micah and other prophetic books that Messiah would be BOTH human and divine.

They understood that "the Son of Man" would also be "the Son of God", and that is equivalent to being God. So when Christ said that He is the Son of God, they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. And when He said at His mock trial that the Son of Man would be coming in the clouds of Heaven, they also condemned Him to death for blasphemy.

MATTHEW 26:THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

CS1 · Dec 12, 2023

PaulThomson · Dec 12, 2023

CS1 said:

You aren't really listening. I believe Jesus is God. I believe God is a Trinity, a community of three distinct divine Persons. However, it is observable in scripture that Jesus' divinity was not presented by the apostles in Acts as an entry-level doctrine for salvation and rebirth. The apostles knew they had lived with and been taught by Jesus for three years, and yet they had not recognised Him as God until after after His resurrection. This understanding of Jesus' fullness was something that grew in the course of time spent with Him. Therefore when they preached the gospel, "Jesus is God" was not something they began with, but expected that the Holy Spirit given to those who put their trust in Jesus as Lord/King and Saviour would teach them all things and make Jesus more fully known to them after salvation.

My beef is not with the concept of trinitarianism. It is with the insistence of some here that faith in Jesus' deity is a necessary prerequisite for salvation and rebirth. I don't see any evidence in the book of Acts for that being a feature of the apostles' preaching to the lost.

PaulThomson · Dec 12, 2023

Cameron143 said:

"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins" does not equal penal substitutionary atonement i.e. that sins are forgiven because the suffering experienced equals or surpasses the sum total of that punishment which the transgressions committed legally deserved.

I would suggest that it was being born as a human being, living a perfectly sinless life and being obedient unto suffering the humiliation and torture of death on a cross is what made Jesus acceptable to God as a MAN to warrant His being given authority over the world originally given to Adam and Eve. And it is our being IN HIM by repentance and faith that makes us holy and acceptable to God. Since obedience to bloodshed was laid down in the old testament as one of Messiah's duties, there could be no glorification for Jesus, and through union with Him forgiveness of sins for us, without the shedding of His blood. But that is quite different from regarding th passion and crucifixion as a legal transaction involving commensurate and adequate punishment matching the offence of the sum total of sins committed by those forgiven.

Requiring the shedding of blood does not of necessity make that blood a legal payment for sins.

Cameron143 · Dec 12, 2023

PaulThomson said:

The forgiveness of sins is based on the shedding of blood. The shedding of blood is what occurred on the cross. Since you aren't shedding your blood for your forgiveness, someone else did that for you...I'm guessing Jesus. So He substituted for you.
Since His sacrifice on the cross was an atonement for sin accepted by God, He satisfied God’s wrath for sin.
Either He appeased God's wrath towards you or He didn't. Which do you believe?

ewq1938 · Dec 13, 2023

PaulThomson said:

I agree. I was challenged to find anything requiring belief that Jesus is God and couldn't find anything. I think it's helpful to know and believe it, but for salvation only belief he is the Messiah is needed as far as I can find anyways.

ewq1938 · Dec 13, 2023

Cameron143 said:

No other human could be a valid sacrifice ie: the blood would not have been acceptable because of sin. Not sin in the blood because that is nonsense but the sin sacrifice has to be blemish free. In animals that was visible but in man, it was a lack of ever sinning and only Jesus was sin free.

So, Jesus did not take our place as a sin sacrifice because we would never have qualified in the first place. The only substituting was a man in place of an animal.

Cameron143 · Dec 13, 2023

ewq1938 said:

No other human could be a valid sacrifice ie: the blood would not have been acceptable because of sin. Not sin in the blood because that is nonsense but the sin sacrifice has to be blemish free. In animals that was visible but in man, it was a lack of ever sinning and only Jesus was sin free.

So, Jesus did not take our place as a sin sacrifice because we would never have qualified in the first place. The only substituting was a man in place of an animal.

I don't understand your replies. I'm sure the problem is on my end. Grace and peace.

ewq1938 · Dec 13, 2023

Cameron143 said:

More simply put: Christ did not take our place on the cross because we could never qualify to be there as a sin sacrifice.

Cameron143 · Dec 13, 2023

ewq1938 said:

I see. But He did pay for our sins while on the cross. He did atone for our transgression and thereby secured peace with God for those who believe. And the basis for our forgiveness is his shed blood, and not our repentance.
Forgive my inadequate wording.

CS1 · Dec 13, 2023

PaulThomson said:

Ok,
But what I think you are failing to see I the book of Acts is those who were preaching Christ as "Salvation" had to understand Jesus is God to be saved. It did not have to say as you, I think, are looking for "Hey, Jesus is God." Yet the power of God and HIS Gospel was testifying to that very truth.

If you read Acts, you will see it is also very much about the Holy Spirit work in the church at its birth, as Jesus said HE would do.

Only God can save and give eternal Life which is saying Jesus is God.

Acts 2:21

21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

As you read the book of Acts, the message to the Jrew, which Jesus said GO TO them first as His witness of HIS resurrection and confirmed that message with signs and wonders. The Jews needed to see Jesus as Resurrected, and the Messiah and Lord who came to them and is God. Luke presents Jesu as the Son of the Most high.

Each Gospel presents Jesus. in many ways an all are true.

Matthew = Messiah
Mark= Suffering servant
Luke = Son of man
John Son of God

The Book of Acts was written after this truth was known, and the church had already accepted the deity of Christ as the Gospel of Mark was most likely the first gospel. We must look at all Gospels and then the book of Acts

ewq1938 · Dec 13, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Yes.

Not exactly but close. A price had to be paid in blood before forgiveness could happen. In NT times after the cross, that price is paid but the forgiveness is not automatic. Repentance (asking to be forgiven, confessing your sins etc) is required.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No problem.

PaulThomson · Dec 13, 2023

CS1 said:

I agree. But it took the apostles thrree or four years to figure that out after living close and personal with the Lord. Disciples who believe Jesus is the promised Messiah will also come to realise this as they spend time with Him. The apostles did not need to believe in Jesus' deity to start to believe in Him as the promised Messiah and to begin a relationship with Him. So, why should others?

CS1 · Dec 13, 2023

PaulThomson said:

I disagree they knew when the Holy Spirit opened up, their understanding. We see that before the Cross and after. Yet they all were looking for the earthly King who was promised. it was after John 22 He breathed on the, and their understanding was open.

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