The Security Of The Believer

[Bible_Highlighter]

All good stuff except salvation isn't through sanctification...it's by faith. One either believes and is saved or doesn't and isn't. No in between.

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).


So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).
This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).


So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).


Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).


In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).


James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.


So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

 

[Cameron143]

Sure it is.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says so.

Lets read it.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
“….God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth::“

Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13 says a similar thing but by different words.
An example of a holy action tied to salvation by the apostle Paul himself is 1 Timothy 5:8.
One cannot skate around 1 Timothy 5:8 and say it is in reference to false believers because it says this:

1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

So only a believer can be worse than an unbeliever (i.e., infidel). An unbeliever (fake believer) cannot be worse than an another unbeliever. That makes no sense. So this tells us that we must provide for our own and IF not, then we are like an unbeliever and we know unbelievers will not be saved.

You have it backwards. Works don't change our hearts. God changes our hearts and we respond differently because we have a changed motivation.
A wicked heart does wicked things. That's what we are born with...Jeremiah 17:9.
God takes out that heart and gives us a heart full of love...Ezekiel 36:26...Romans 5:5.
In salvation, we become something different than what we were. This is what accounts for the difference in our behavior. We don't produce the change by our endeavor. God changes us and we endeavor to walk in the Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.


Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).


How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

(Continued in my next post):

I don't deny faith manifests itself in works. Ephesians 2:10 says as much. But works don't cause faith. Faith leads to works.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I wasn't referring to the parable, but why Jesus spoke in parables and what it teaches about hearing. Did you bother to read the verses I listed?

The Parable relates to your point, though. But people do not hear because their hearts have waxed gross due to sin. Those who do not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Sin and believing lies (or false beliefs) is the problem. This is why Jesus said to the Jews:

43 “Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.””
(John 8:43-44).

Being converted and born again will help a person to see God’s words. But it does not end there. After being born again, I believe a Christian has to continually ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit to give us understanding in Jesus’ name (i.e., the Anointing as mentioned in 1 John 2:27).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You have it backwards. Works don't change our hearts. God changes our hearts and we respond differently because we have a changed motivation.
A wicked heart does wicked things. That's what we are born with...Jeremiah 17:9.
God takes out that heart and gives us a heart full of love...Ezekiel 36:26...Romans 5:5.
In salvation, we become something different than what we were. This is what accounts for the difference in our behavior. We don't produce the change by our endeavor. God changes us and we endeavor to walk in the Spirit.

Okay. Maybe you missed it in my previous posts. Let me reclarify this.

While technically there are four aspects of salvation (Provisional Atonement, God’s grace, Sanctification, and Glorification) there are only two aspects of salvation we as believers need to be primarily concerned with in this life.

For the Bible teaches:

1st aspect of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

2nd aspect of salvation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,…”

This is not Calvinism by any means. Man has free will to either accept or reject God, but this happens when God illuminates the truth to a person at the right time or times in their life (Under the drawing of Christ and the conviction of the Spirit). For even Lydia’s heart was opened to understand Paul’s message. In other words, a person cannot believe without the working of God in their life to make that happen. But a person will know of the truth at the right time God chooses them to know the truth. It is up to the individual if they accept or reject the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

But there is only two steps we need to be concerned with (According to the Bible).
Grace and Sanctification (Which are by faith).

Side Note:

We are washed of our sins when we are first saved by God’s grace.
But we must be washed a second time.

Leviticus 13:58
”And the garment, either warp, or woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.”

Revelation 7:14
”And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

 

[Romans34]

Did you bother to read the verses I listed?

NO. It seems many will not read and meditate on what someone else has stated any more than they will the Scripture that's quoted. While reading posts in a thread, some people will only see that part of what is written that they feel they can make a successful (in their mind) argument against. Everyone has their "preference" Scriptures to quote to make their case, but one must harmonize ALL of Scripture (and I realize that none of us are able to do that 100%). And to do that, one MUST understand context. But then the problem is everyone has their own idea about the context.

Harmonizing means no contradiction. It's ok if one doesn't understand everything he reads in Scripture, but it's not ok to contradict one's own self in what he believes. It's a sure indicator he's a novice or lacking in study habits, among other possibilities. One MUST have a good foundation to build on or his labor is in vain. So if your convictions are that a man's work somehow is involved in obtaining (or maintaining) eternal life (salvation), then the burden of proof is on YOU to show how it harmonizes with the many verses that teach otherwise. And if you ask for a list, it should be with the understanding that when I give you one, you WILL deal with THOSE Scriptures and how they harmonize with what you believe.

The real danger here is NOT embarrassment from NOT being able to triumph over your 'fellow' "Christian Chat" forum members. If you are relying on your works to save (or keep) your soul, you may end up being one of those Christ says "I never knew you". You will give an account one day.

 

[Cameron143]

The Parable relates to your point, though. But people do not hear because their hearts have waxed gross due to sin. Those who do not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Sin and believing lies (or false beliefs) is the problem. This is why Jesus said to the Jews:

43 “Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.””
(John 8:43-44).

Being converted and born again will help a person to see God’s words. But it does not end there. After being born again, I believe a Christian has to continually ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit to give us understanding in Jesus’ name (i.e., the Anointing as mentioned in 1 John 2:27).

They hear and understand and see and perceive because they have been converted. The others do hear but don't understand and see but don't perceive because they are not converted.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I don't deny faith manifests itself in works. Ephesians 2:10 says as much. But works don't cause faith. Faith leads to works.

I believe the Bible talks from different perspectives on the faith and works issue. But the Bible does indeed teach that works is a part of your faith. James says he will show you his his faith by his works. This would be the “work of faith“ Paul refers to in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Every word in your Bible is a part of the faith. It takes faith or belief on your part to believe even the Sanctification instructions. By faith Noah built an ark. That’s a lot of work building an ark. But it say BY FAITH he did so. When Paul talks about faith most of the time, he is referring to a belief alone in relation to how we need to be initially saved by God’s grace through faith. But faith continues and morphs into one being faithFUL.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

NO. It seems many will not read and meditate on what someone else has stated any more than they will the Scripture that's quoted. While reading posts in a thread, some people will only see that part of what is written that they feel they can make a successful (in their mind) argument against. Everyone has their "preference" Scriptures to quote to make their case, but one must harmonize ALL of Scripture (and I realize that none of us are able to do that 100%). And to do that, one MUST understand context. But then the problem is everyone has their own idea about the context.

Harmonizing means no contradiction. It's ok if one doesn't understand everything he reads in Scripture, but it's not ok to contradict one's own self in what he believes. It's a sure indicator he's a novice or lacking in study habits, among other possibilities. One MUST have a good foundation to build on or his labor is in vain. So if your convictions are that a man's work somehow is involved in obtaining (or maintaining) eternal life (salvation), then the burden of proof is on YOU to show how it harmonizes with the many verses that teach otherwise. And if you ask for a list, it should be with the understanding that when I give you one, you WILL deal with THOSE Scriptures and how they harmonize with what you believe.

The real danger here is NOT embarrassment from NOT being able to triumph over your 'fellow' "Christian Chat" forum members. If you are relying on your works to save (or keep) your soul, you may end up being one of those Christ says "I never knew you". You will give an account one day.

Actually, the reason why those believers were cast out in Matthew 7:22-23 was not because they were trusting solely in their works. The passage does not even say that. They merely said that they did wonderful works in His name. The problem was that Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity, which is sin. So if a believer never played ball on God’s terms in relation to sin, they are going to hear the Lord say, ”I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).

The proof? Just keep reading. In Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says everyone who hears his words and does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of it.

But in Eternal Security, you can sin and still be saved on some level.
Believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7).

 

[Cameron143]

Okay. Maybe you missed it in my previous posts. Let me reclarify this.

While technically there are four aspects of salvation (Provisional Atonement, God’s grace, Sanctification, and Glorification) there are only two aspects of salvation we as believers need to be primarily concerned with in this life.

For the Bible teaches:

1st aspect of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

2nd aspect of salvation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,…”

This is not Calvinism by any means. Man has free will to either accept or reject God, but this happens when God illuminates the truth to a person at the right time or times in their life (Under the drawing of Christ and the conviction of the Spirit). For even Lydia’s heart was opened to understand Paul’s message. In other words, a person cannot believe without the working of God in their life to make that happen. But a person will know of the truth at the right time God chooses them to know the truth. It is up to the individual if they accept or reject the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

But there is only two steps we need to be concerned with (According to the Bible).
Grace and Sanctification (Which are by faith).

Side Note:

We are washed of our sins when we are first saved by God’s grace.
But we must be washed a second time.

Leviticus 13:58
”And the garment, either warp, or woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean.”

Revelation 7:14
”And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

I know what you believe. You've been very clear. I just disagree with your understanding. But as you are quite adamant, I'll not persuade you. But I appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

They hear and understand and see and perceive because they have been converted. The others do hear but don't understand and see but don't perceive because they are not converted.

Yes, as I said before, being born again. This is conversion. This will help them to see, but it is not a substitute for studying God’s Word and seeking the Anointing.

In fact, there are many believers today who claim they are born again. But they still do not understand the really important things in the Bible. There are several reasons for this. One reason is that they need to study with the Spirit more. The other reason is that they are justifying sin in some way. When I say ”justifying sin” this is very specific and not some broad term. A believer who does not justify sin will see things more clearly in the Bible. It means that a believer will see that salvation is conditional, and they realize that many different sin can destroy their soul in the afterlife. They have to confess and forsake sin after they are saved by God’s grace. If not, they are not playing ball on God’s terms. They have invented their own path or way they prefer because it is more comforting to them.

 

[Kroogz]

In Jude 1, these believers who turn God’s grace into a license to sin are very clever. They are so clever that they slip in among other genuine believers. It’s why the tares (weeds) look like the wheat. They are hard to spot. But Jesus says we will know them by their fruit. It’s not, we will know them by a belief.

How did this "license to sin" guy get in unnoticed? It would be pretty easy to spot a dude walking in with a bottle of jack in his hand and a lady of the night under each arm.

But it is very difficult to spot a religious, law obeying, praising Jesus self righteous person, who has never trusted Christ alone for their salvation.

 

[Romans34]

But in Eternal Security, you can sin and still be saved on some level.

So how does one determine when he has exceeded that "level" and is lost again? James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

 

[Nehemiah6]

But in Eternal Security, you can sin and still be saved on some level.

And yet you could not tell everyone that you are sinlessly perfect. So your salvation -- according to you -- is also in jeopardy. Are you happy with that kind of salvation, or are you even more righteous than the apostle Paul? Tell us straight out.

 

[Kroogz]

Being born again is not a guarantee of entering the Kingdom of God. It is a guarantee of eternal life. Being born again only allows us to see the kingdom. Carrying the cross daily enables us to enter God's kingdom.

There will be believers in heaven who never experienced the blessings of God's kingdom. They live for themselves in this life and so have nothing of spiritual worth for the next. Jesus prepares a place for us. We do not know what that will be like. What we do know from the Word is that there is placement in God's kingdom. It depends on the degree to which we submit to the will of God in this life.

No one who is born again loves sin. The new spirit hates sin and the conscience condemns sin until it is confessed and cleansed. Christians can and do sin. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. Sinless perfection is not available in this life. Christians should be delivered progressively as they grow in Christ.

Sin is much more than what most Christians understand. The true definition is "whatever is not of faith". There are people who have built mighty religious endeavours who will find that they did it by their own efforts and talents, apart from the leading of God. They are the "wood, hay or straw" (1 Corinthians 3:12). Those who build as led and empowered by the Spirit will find that their works survive the fire of God's judgement. God's "consuming fire" is common in the Christian's experience, if he is choosing to go God's way. God wants us to be totally dependent on Him for both the vision and the empowering to carry it out.

It helps to know that the majority of church goers are not born again. You should not expect them to live righteously. They have no ability in themselves. If we could live righteously, Jesus died for nothing.

If I understand you correctly, we are on the same page. Some believers will be naked in heaven. And others will be crowned and clothed.

Semantics if I understand you correctly~~all believers enter the Kingdom, but not all will inherit the Kingdom. Some fail at the Christian way of life and some succeed. And we are rewarded accordingly.

Lord of lords. King of kings. This denotes a placement system.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So how does one determine when he has exceeded that "level" and is lost again?

If you are sinlessly perfect like Bible_Highligter you don't have to worry about that.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

How did this "license to sin" guy get in unnoticed? It would be pretty easy to spot a dude walking in with a bottle of jack in his hand and a lady of the night under each arm.

What you describe here are the Hyper Grace Christians. I have met one personally and have talked with them many times in the past on another forum. They one guy I met in person admitted to me that they could mow down a bunch of people with a sub machine gun and still be saved all by having a belief alone in Jesus. They are very scary. George Sodini was a famous Hyper Grace believer. He took the life of some people and then turned the gun on himself. In his suicide letter (so-to-speak), he said he was saved by a belief alone in Jesus despite his evil actions. Even his church said he was saved despite the grizzly incident. You can learn more here, and here.

So yeah, Jude 1:4 would obviously not be referring to them.

But there is another group, of Christians who justify sin who will say George Sodini was never saved. They also believe they can sin and still be saved but it takes a lot to get them to admit it. They may say murder, rape, and theft are sins that no true believer will ever do. But then they turn around and speak out of the other side of their mouth and say that Christians will always sin as per 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24. These are the ones who are hiding among the faithful believers who do not think you can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. The genuine believers hold to conditional salvation and they believe if they sin, they can fall into spiritual death unless they confess and forsake their sins.

But it is very difficult to spot a religious, law obeying, praising Jesus self righteous person, who has never trusted Christ alone for their salvation.

There are Works ALONE Salvationists I disagree with like the Church of Christ. They believe you must do the work of water baptism to be initially saved. There are also some like Adam at Abide in the Word YouTube Channel who is strongly against the idea of Initial Salvation by a belief alone. He does not understand that this is in our Initial Salvation.

I believe the Bible teaches that we are first saved initially by God’s grace through faith (Which is an aspect of salvation that is without works) (Ephesians 2:8-9). But then after we are saved by God’s grace, we must enter the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit as a part of continuing in God’s plan of salvation (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So it’s not all grace, and neither is it all works, or holiness. Each aspect of salvation has its due.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

If you are sinlessly perfect like Bible_Highligter you don't have to worry about that.

As I said before, there are sins that do not lead unto death.

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.

#3. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#4. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

#5. The Command to Be Baptized.
Please do not misunderstand me on this one here. Believers should be baptized as soon as they placed their trust in Jesus Christ. It’s a part of the great commission by our Lord Jesus Christ. But what if circumstances in life did not make this possible? Clearly the thief on the cross was not water baptized and yet he was saved. Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that leads to spiritual death if one is not able to fulfill it in this life. Again, I want to stress that a believer should naturally have a natural heart of obedience and desire to be water baptized and they should do so right away if they are able. But if they did not live long after being a believer, or they are unable to find the right believers to be baptized by in this life and they die (not having been baptized), they will not be condemned by failing to do so (At least according to the testimony of Scripture). (Important Note: Yes, I am aware of Acts 2:38, and Acts 22:16; Please see my post here in another thread for an explanation on these two verses).

#6. Sin of worry.
Luke 12:22-32. Worry is seen as having little faith and not as a sin that condemns.

Granted, keep in mind, I am not saying we should not worry about these sins, either. Believers should strive to obey the Lord in everything. The point here is there are sins that lead to death, and sins that don’t.


Side Note for our other readers here:

No, I am not Catholic or Orthodox. I just believe the Bible. While I am not Protestant, my beliefs are more similar to them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As I said before, there are sins that do not lead unto death.

You do not even know what that verse is really saying. AND ONCE AGAIN YOU DODGED THE REQUEST TO DECLARE THAT YOU ARE SINLESSLY PERFECT. Which means that all your posts about this subject have no merit. You are either capable of sinning, and therefore (according to you), you will lose your salvation, or you are sinlessly perfect like no one else and exempt from losing your salvation. There is no middle ground.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You do not even know what that verse is really saying. AND ONCE AGAIN YOU DODGED THE REQUEST TO DECLARE THAT YOU ARE SINLESSLY PERFECT. Which means that all your posts about this subject have no merit. You are either capable of sinning, and therefore (according to you), you will lose your salvation, or you are sinlessly perfect like no one else and exempt from losing your salvation. There is no middle ground.

Romans 14:4 says,
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.””

We are all to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Sinless Perfection is not required to be saved because I showed you certain sins that do not lead unto death.

Granted, that said, I do believe that if a believer does not overcome sin the Bible attaches with warnings of hellfire or condemnation, they are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom.

This is just the reality of what the Bible actually says.
I am not going to follow the popular crowd who cherry picks the Bible to justify sin just so I can fit in.

I mean, what do you do with verses like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, and 1 Timothy 5:8?