The Security Of The Believer

[wattie]

it does NOT mean that we still go to Heaven if we turn away from the Lord to go back to living in sin as most of the OSAS peoples supposes.

Yet they DON'T suppose that, and you've been told that many times, yet you continue to INTENTIONALLY bear false witness against your neighbors. REPENT! [/QUOTE]


THIS is why I can't talk to this clown. He will not listen and every conversation I've seen him in, he is always speaking in bad faith. I can't even see him as a brother sadly, his behavior and the way He speaks to people reek of ignorance and the flesh. Just a sad case in limbo.[/QUOTE]

The way I see it is.. once a person believes in Jesus.. they are saved right then and there. It is possible they could fall into old ways.. in fact to a degree all believers do. But that would be 'tripping up' or 'struggling', since no one is perfect...rather than - 'let's go sin because we are free'

This is the very thing Romans 6 addresses.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Again....an entire church losing the presence of the Holy Spirit is not the individuals in that church each losing eternal life.

was every member committing those sins addressed to the BODY of the Church of Smyrna?

it just cannot be ONE PERSON committing these SINS, it has to be ALL or the Majority of them for how Jesus addressed the Church.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Where in the bible do we 'turning from sins' part of initial salvation?

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

There is no remission of sins as long as one is walking in darkness, this includes those that got born again and backslid back into continuing in their sins... they have lost their salvation and need to confess and forsake their sin (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9) in order to find mercy

Here are some other verses Christians should be aware of that the false OSAS teachers don't want to talk about...

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:1
I write these things unto you, that ye sin not

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

God knew them, but, once He Blots Out their Name, it's like forgiven Sin, He no longer Remembers.

Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

It is possible they could fall into old ways.. in fact to a degree all believers do. But that would be 'tripping up' or 'struggling', since no one is perfect...rather than - 'let's go sin because we are free'

And when they are not abiding IN Christ out doing sinful behavior... if they die in that condition, they go to hell because... God is NOT mocked what we sow is what we reap... if we sow to the flesh (sin) we shall of the flesh reap corruption (unrighteousness)

 

[Blade]

"But, that seal is simply God's mark or claim upon us once we become born again... it does NOT mean that we still go to Heaven if we turn away from the Lord to go back to living in sin as most of the OSAS peoples supposes.

Many today are continuing in their sin thinking they are still saved because they have been deceived by the OSAS people's fake gospel... when keeps telling people it's not possible to lose their salvation when God's Word clearly does not teach that. "

Hi Jimmy lol not picking on ya this one stood out..others did but.. be here all day. Its written "you were sealed for the day of redemption". One could flip what you said. Nor does it say "its simply God's mark on us" It says you were sealed for the day of redemption. Hmm what does mean? Can I ask you where you came up with "turn away from the Lord to go back to living in sin as most of the OSAS peoples supposes." You used the word most yet I know for fact you do not know most so saying it is lying. To just lump so many together is very unwise.

Then you keep going "Many today are continuing in their sin thinking they are still saved because they have been deceived by the OSAS people's fake gospel". You made this statement. Who believes in Jesus Christ continuing in their sin thinking they are still saved? So are your sins only forgiven if you repent? Does GOD hold them against you if you do not repent? Do we think every believer that dies has confess every sin? Are we only righteous before God IF we have repented, is that how righteousness works? There is this door and has no part. See the only way that door opens is if I believe God sent Yesuah (John 3:16-17) and He died for the sin of the world and rose the 3rd day the only way to the Father. I am the way the truth and the life no one gets to the Father but by me.

So what sin Jimmy can you do that He never already paid the price for? See I know all this I believe all this but like my elder Brother Paul does this mean I can freely sin? <---thats where those that are not secure in the faith (If you asked me) stop. OSAS keep going and say "God forbid". No I cannot freely sin. Yet my righteousness does not come by me never sinning. Sin or not I am righteous because I believe in trust in Jesus Christ and I never want to sin. All you have to do is ASK anyone OSAS "do you believe you can freely sin all you want live in sin and still make it to heaven". Then you quote them not this "MOST" there is no most.

For the record I do not think I am OSAS nor can lose my salvation. That branch does not get cut off every time I sin forget to repent or get stuck in sin just to be re-grafted in when I do repent. If we looked more into that its that branch that is not showing fruit? Gets lifted up so it gets more light.

 

[Romans34]

But, that seal is simply God's mark or claim upon us once we become born again... it does NOT mean that we still go to Heaven if we turn away from the Lord to go back to living in sin as most of the OSAS peoples supposes.

Many today are continuing in their sin thinking they are still saved because they have been deceived by the OSAS people's fake gospel... when keeps telling people it's not possible to lose their salvation when God's Word clearly does not teach that.

I'm afraid you don't understand the magnitude of the claim, nor God' grace. When one is born again (from above), he becomes a new creation, bought with a price (the highest that could be paid). He now belongs to Christ, and is not his own. And He is not going to give up or let go of that which He paid such a high price. Ask Him to help you to see from His point of view, and He will give you understanding. Quick focusing on man's works that He's already made clear He has rejected and give Him glory for HIS work of Grace!

 

[Romans34]

the Greek word used for Grieving the Spirit literally means "to make unhappy."
what does an unhappy God do to those who continue to tick Him off?

He LOVES them, just like parents do their children when they 'tick' them off.

 

[wattie]

He LOVES them, just like parents do their children when they 'tick' them off.

Yea.. parents don't disown a rebellious child if they are doing their job..yet some say God's connection to his children is LESSER than than a parent to a child.

 

[wattie]

was every member committing those sins addressed to the BODY of the Church of Smyrna?

it just cannot be ONE PERSON committing these SINS, it has to be ALL or the Majority of them for how Jesus addressed the Church.

Yes. So then are we going to argue that each and every believer in that church lost eternal life?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

He LOVES them, just like parents do their children when they 'tick' them off.

from your OWN REFORMED DOCTRINE: to Grieve or make unhappy is because of Disobedience.

Reformed Definition of Biblical Disobedience:
Disobedience to the LORD is an utterly serious matter that ought to put in us the fear of God. The LORD has equated disobedience with rebellion, insubordination (arrogance), divination, iniquity (the pursuit of futility), and idolatry.

^
which most of those also equate to Witchcraft.

Ironically, this same type of Disobedience, in Romans 1, results in God giving a person a Reprobate Mind.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes. So then are we going to argue that each and every believer in that church lost eternal life?

it's a Warning, that if they do not change, it would happen.

Ireneaus, Hipo, Papias, Polycarp, Ignatius were Disciples of the Apostle John, and according to Ireneaus, John became Bishop over these 7 Churches with his Disciples and corrected these Churches after his release from Patmos.

 

[wattie]

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

There is no remission of sins as long as one is walking in darkness, this includes those that got born again and backslid back into continuing in their sins... they have lost their salvation and need to confess and forsake their sin (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9) in order to find mercy

Here are some other verses Christians should be aware of that the false OSAS teachers don't want to talk about...

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:1
I write these things unto you, that ye sin not

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.






Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it





And when they are not abiding IN Christ out doing sinful behavior... if they die in that condition, they go to hell because... God is NOT mocked what we sow is what we reap... if we sow to the flesh (sin) we shall of the flesh reap corruption (unrighteousness)

The 'sinneth not'.. when the 'eth' is on the end of a word, it's an ongoing, continual action. So a believer would not habitually sin because the Holy Spirit will rebuke and prompt them to restore fellowship.

It doesn't mean 'never sins' ...because no human can do that.

This is what I think you are missing Jimmy.. is the work of the Holy Spirit in disciplining His children.

With this discipline..it becomes unlikely a believer will stay in the same sin habitually.

The security of the believer does not mean there is no discipline and rebuke for the believer.

Would you only be obedient to your parents (or past parents ) if they threatened to disown you if you get into trouble?

I would be obedient to my parent because they love me beyond my behaviour.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

cracks me up, people in here preaching a Reformed Doctrine and have no idea how anything is even defined by their Reformed peers.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

the hypocrisy is real up in here!

 

[wattie]

from your OWN REFORMED DOCTRINE: to Grieve or make unhappy is because of Disobedience.

Reformed Definition of Biblical Disobedience:
Disobedience to the LORD is an utterly serious matter that ought to put in us the fear of God. The LORD has equated disobedience with rebellion, insubordination (arrogance), divination, iniquity (the pursuit of futility), and idolatry.

^
which most of those also equate to Witchcraft.

Ironically, this same type of Disobedience, in Romans 1, results in God giving a person a Reprobate Mind.

Well..I can tell you he most likely does not follow reformed doctrine, being independent missionary Baptist as I am...which are not reformed tradition churches.

Church history isn't Catholics, the Reformers and no one else.

It's Catholics, reformers and other independent Christian churches that didn't need to reform their teaching.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Well..I can tell you he most likely does not follow reformed doctrine, being independent missionary Baptist as I am...which are not reformed tradition churches.

Church history isn't Catholics, the Reformers and no one else.

It's Catholics, reformers and other independent Christian churches that didn't need to reform their teaching.

he's preaching a Reformed Doctrine nevertheless.

 

[wattie]

he's preaching a Reformed Doctrine nevertheless.

Once saved always saved is preached in reformed tradition churches.. but if it's thru calvinism..thats not really osas..because calvinists link works to salvation by saying an 'elect' person will definitely 'endure to the end'

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Once saved always saved is preached in reformed tradition churches.. but if it's thru calvinism..thats not really osas..because calvinists link works to salvation by saying an 'elect' person will definitely 'endure to the end'

i am just mentioning it is a Reformed Doctrine which should apply to all Reformed Definitions.
even as Independent, you're still preaching Reformed.

we're 32 pages into this so there's no more time left to move the goalposts.
it is what it is and it is a Reformed Doctrine being preached.

 

[Evmur]

That’s not how it works, as I have shown in Scripture.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches that you can lose salvation by living in sin. The Prodigal Son was living it up with prostitutes. Yet, when the Prodigal Son decided to come home and seek forgiveness with his father, his fathe he died spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he sought forgiveness with his father (Which would be in our case, the Everlasting Father, i.e.. Jesus Christ). His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. Meaning, he went from a saved state to a lost state, and then back to a saved state again.

It’s why 1 John 1:9 says if we confess of our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. Being forgiven of sins is dealing with salvation. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sins shall have mercy. Mercy here is dealing with salvation. One cannot obviously commit sin and claim to be a follower of the King Jesus Christ. 1 John 3:8 says that he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:10 makes it clear that he that loves his brother and does righteousness is of God. Your belief allows to do unrighteousness and yet you claim the keys to the Kingdom. This runs contrary to almost every turn of the page in the New Testament. Jesus warned about how just looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). But men today just want to do the fancy dance to avoid these kinds of pieces in Scripture.

if we confess our sins.

... you are confessing your holiness or are making holiness the requisite. You know that we all sin even when we have got the victory over the more greivious ones, so how many times a week do you "die" and need to be brought back to life? what about the sins you don't even know about?

Are you simply hoping that though you are a rat you are a cleaner rat than others?

Our salvation is once and forever.

That is why we can be CERTAIN if we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and the blood of His Son cleanseth us from all unrighteousness.

Otherwise if we have lost our salvation we will have to crucify our Lord again to be saved again we make amok of it all. Hebrews says it's impossible.

Hebrews is comparing our perfect sacrifice to the old Jewish way of every time a sin was committed a lamb had to be slain and sacrificed.

"He by a single sacrifice has sanctified for all time those who come to Him in faith"

 

[Evmur]

That’s not how it works, as I have shown in Scripture.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches that you can lose salvation by living in sin. The Prodigal Son was living it up with prostitutes. Yet, when the Prodigal Son decided to come home and seek forgiveness with his father, his fathe he died spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he sought forgiveness with his father (Which would be in our case, the Everlasting Father, i.e.. Jesus Christ). His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. Meaning, he went from a saved state to a lost state, and then back to a saved state again.

It’s why 1 John 1:9 says if we confess of our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. Being forgiven of sins is dealing with salvation. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sins shall have mercy. Mercy here is dealing with salvation. One cannot obviously commit sin and claim to be a follower of the King Jesus Christ. 1 John 3:8 says that he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:10 makes it clear that he that loves his brother and does righteousness is of God. Your belief allows to do unrighteousness and yet you claim the keys to the Kingdom. This runs contrary to almost every turn of the page in the New Testament. Jesus warned about how just looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). But men today just want to do the fancy dance to avoid these kinds of pieces in Scripture.

Has anybody ever accused you of giving people a license to sin? they accused Paul of that, they accuse us of it. Paul said their condemnation is just.

If folks don't accuse you of giving folks a license to sin could be you are preaching a different gospel to Paul.

 

[Romans34]

Once saved always saved is preached in reformed tradition churches.. but if it's thru calvinism..thats not really osas..because calvinists link works to salvation by saying an 'elect' person will definitely 'endure to the end'

i am just mentioning it is a Reformed Doctrine which should apply to all Reformed Definitions.
even as Independent, you're still preaching Reformed.

we're 32 pages into this so there's no more time left to move the goalposts.
it is what it is and it is a Reformed Doctrine being preached.

@wattie , he evidently doesn't understand the difference between Calvinist and Baptist. But then, most people don't.

@The_Watchers_2017 , you moved the goalposts when you got this thread away from its original train of thought. And it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Reformed Doctrine. Until you understand the difference, there's not much more can be said to help you.