Orthodox Jew answers a few questions

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Well, I'm not crazy about Israel at the moment so I don't know if that's a good thing.

Yes, there is a split here as well. We've had to have some hard discussions and mend some fences over it. But my view of Israel is not so much what is happening there today, but an over all view of prophesy and what the end will be. But then my worldview is evangelical.

 

[PennEd]

I'll be sporting. Explain why you put those words in quotes and I'll answer your questions.

That was the word I emphasized for description.

In my experience evangelicals who "defend Jews" do so only to the extent that Jews and Israel play into thier apocalyptic beliefs, or because they think G-d will bless them extra for it.

Although I certainly DO believe the Jews will look on Him whom they pierced, and will once again appeal to Messiah with Hosanna (save now I pray from Psalm 188) as they did when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the exact day prophesied He would, on the day the lambs were to be presented for spot or blemish, I love the Jews.
If for no other reason then these are the people by which the Savior of the whole world, Gentiles included, came. And Gentiles are specifically told in Romans 11 not to boast that most Jews are blinded for a time.

And I DO still believe God blesses those that bless Israel, and curses those that curse them. Look at what has happened over 2000 yrs to those that persecuted and mistreated the Jews. Every nation or empire that has were dealt with severely.

I truly believe that at least on an intellectual level, if one honestly looks at the evidence FROM JUST THE TORAH, they would have to conclude that Jesus IS the Jewish Messiah.

EVERY debt MUST be paid. You can owe me a million dollars, and I can forgive you that debt. But that means I PAID THAT DEBT.

So it is with sin. Old and New Testament alike agree that the wages of sin are death. The blood of bulls and goats can never take away debt. It can only COVER debt. Nothing short of the Blood of God Himself, through His Son, was necessary to pay our sin debt. God cannot just forgive sin without payment. He is a loving God, but He is a JUST God as well.

You will not be able to stand before Him and try and justify your sins by being a good person, or doing good deeds. You will have to pay for your sins eternally separated from Him. We have no capacity to fully understand just what that would mean.

Understand the REAL reason your S.I.L. sent you here was probably for the hope of hearing the Truth of His Gospel. WE can help you with that.

 

[Aviva]

That was the word I emphasized for description.

THIS is emphasis. Or this. Putting a single word in quotes usually implies contention with the word used.

Although I certainly DO believe the Jews will look on Him whom they pierced, and will once again appeal to Messiah with Hosanna (save now I pray from Psalm 188) as they did when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the exact day prophesied He would, on the day the lambs were to be presented for spot or blemish, I love the Jews.
If for no other reason then these are the people by which the Savior of the whole world, Gentiles included, came. And Gentiles are specifically told in Romans 11 not to boast that most Jews are blinded for a time.

And I DO still believe God blesses those that bless Israel, and curses those that curse them. Look at what has happened over 2000 yrs to those that persecuted and mistreated the Jews. Every nation or empire that has were dealt with severely.

Agree to disagree.

I truly believe that at least on an intellectual level, if one honestly looks at the evidence FROM JUST THE TORAH, they would have to conclude that Jesus IS the Jewish Messiah.

You are free to believe whatever you like, I'm not trying to convince you to believe otherwise.

EVERY debt MUST be paid. You can owe me a million dollars, and I can forgive you that debt. But that means I PAID THAT DEBT.

Forgiving a financial obligation is not the same as paying a debt although both involve a loss or sacrifice of resources.

So it is with sin. Old and New Testament alike agree that the wages of sin are death. The blood of bulls and goats can never take away debt. It can only COVER debt. Nothing short of the Blood of God Himself, through His Son, was necessary to pay our sin debt. God cannot just forgive sin without payment. He is a loving God, but He is a JUST God as well.

You will not be able to stand before Him and try and justify your sins by being a good person, or doing good deeds. You will have to pay for your sins eternally separated from Him. We have no capacity to fully understand just what that would mean.

I just quoted several verses from Hosea and Psalms that say otherwise. "The wages of sin are death" does not appear in the Tanakh, nor is such a sentiment ever expressed. G-d states numerous times that he will show mercy and forgiveness if asked. This is not my opinion, it is his own words.

Understand the REAL reason your S.I.L. sent you here was probably for the hope of hearing the Truth of His Gospel. WE can help you with that.

You spoke to my sister in law? She wouldn't send me here if her goal was to convert me.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You spoke to my sister in law? She wouldn't send me here if her goal was to convert me.

Some years ago I joined a Jewish site, similar to what we have here. They requested there would be no trying to covert people. I honored their request. I had a lot of great discussions with views different from mine. For the most part people were good about it considering I was straight forward about who I was.

 

[PennEd]

THIS is emphasis. Or this. Putting a single word in quotes usually implies contention with the word used.

Then you misinterpreted it. Not sure what else to say on that.

Agree to disagree.

Well, I know! That's the point of making the case.

"The wages of sin are death" does not appear in the Tanakh, nor is such a sentiment ever expressed.


What!? There's at least one WHOLE Book in the Torah where the wages of sin are
death. Leviticus. Here's just a sample:

Punishments for Sin
20 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3 I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5 I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.

6 “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

7 “‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17 “‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

18 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.

19 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

20 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

21 “‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

22 “‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

25 “‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

27 “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”

You spoke to my sister in law?

I don't have to. It's a "prime directive" of every Christian to spread the Gospel. Especially to those we know and love.

She wouldn't send me here if her goal was to convert me.

Technically become "Born Again" so we can ALL become your sister!

 

[Aviva]

Then you misinterpreted it. Not sure what else to say on that.

Well, I know! That's the point of making the case.

I never said there was no death penalty in the Torah. I said "The wages of sin are death" (which means death for any sin regardless) is not in the Torah nor is such a sentiment expressed.

 

[Seeker47]

Jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud. Unless you are Jewish I don't see why you'd need to read it.

I have found the Talmud to be a tremendous resource to my faith. The Talmud stands as the historical record of the Jewish peoples struggle to better understand and apply God's word to their lives. To better understand faith, justice, fairness, charity, love. I just finished reading an exceptional article about how to treat the elderly that is Talmud based. There is also a fascinating view of justice from the Talmud involving the proper application of justice when 71 votes for guilty are cast by the Sanhedrin. With all do respect and with no desire to be argumentative, I find the Talmud of great value.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I never said there was no death penalty in the Torah. I said "The wages of sin are death" (which means death for any sin regardless) is not in the Torah nor is such a sentiment expressed.

Well then you should go to the book of Genesis (Hebrew Bereshith = In the beginning, which is the first book in the Torah) and take a close look at Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

These are the words of God to Adam. And the Bible says that there are two deaths. While Adam did not die physically on the day he disobeyed God, he did die spiritually and hid himself from God. He also brought the curse of sin and death upon the human race (Romans 5:12).

 

[Aviva]

Well then you should go to the book of Genesis (Hebrew Bereshith = In the beginning, which is the first book in the Torah) and take a close look at Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

These are the words of God to Adam. And the Bible says that there are two deaths. While Adam did not die physically on the day he disobeyed God, he did die spiritually and hid himself from God. He also brought the curse of sin and death upon the human race (Romans 5:12).

What this has to do with wages of sun/death not being in the Tanakh I'm not sure. G-d said to Adam he would die, and he did because he became mortal. We don't believe in "spiritual death" (whatever that means), original sin or anything like that.

In addition quoting the Christian bible to a Jew to make a theological argument is a waste of time since we don't believe in it. I understand people here do, but it's not going to mean anything to me.

 

[Eli1]

In addition quoting the Christian bible to a Jew to make a theological argument is a waste of time since we don't believe in it. I understand people here do, but it's not going to mean anything to me.

I love this comment and i totally agree with you.
I say the same thing in regards to atheists or muslims. Quoting the Bible to them is the last thing you want to do.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

What this has to do with wages of sun/death not being in the Tanakh I'm not sure. G-d said to Adam he would die, and he did because he became mortal. We don't believe in "spiritual death" (whatever that means), original sin or anything like that.

In addition quoting the Christian bible to a Jew to make a theological argument is a waste of time since we don't believe in it. I understand people here do, but it's not going to mean anything to me.

Right, which is what I ran into during the time I was in the Jewish forum. I was asking questions they had no concept of. In fact many considered the New Testament Antisemitic. And having read history and some of the early church fathers I could understand why they ( Jewish) would feel that way.

 

[Nehemiah6]

G-d said to Adam he would die, and he did because he became mortal.

But that is not what God had said. He said that IN THE DAY (THE VERY DAY) Adam disobeyed the commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would SURELY DIE. (The issue of mortality is not even in view since Adam lived for 930 years after he disobeyed God).

Obviously you have no answer for why he did not physically die on that very day, and when God says something He means exactly what He says. But we know why. And we also know why all human beings die physically, and many also face the second death.

 

[Aviva]

But that is not what God had said. He said that IN THE DAY (THE VERY DAY) Adam disobeyed the commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would SURELY DIE. (The issue of mortality is not even in view since Adam lived for 930 years after he disobeyed God).

Obviously you have no answer for why he did not physically die on that very day, and when God says something He means exactly what He says. But we know why. And we also know why all human beings die physically, and many also face the second death.

Oh okay. Since it's so obvious I can't answer, you saved me the trouble of responding!

I'm starting to like this place... so many of you save me the trouble of having to discuss anything!

 

[Mem]

4. Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?
A. Because we do not believe he meets the requirements to be the Messiah. There are numerous commentaries online if you really want a deeper answer.

To me, this is the most intriguing question. You don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah then who do you believe he actually is? Do you believe he is someone like Muhammed?

 

[Aviva]

To me, this is the most intriguing question. You don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah then who do you believe he actually is? Do you believe he is someone like Muhammed?

I don't know, did Jesus order the slaughter of hundreds of people?

 

[Mem]

I don't know, did Jesus order the slaughter of hundreds of people?

You're not going to be short and snippety your entire visit, are you? What do you think of him?

 

[Mem]

Given that Jesus is a man within in the Jewish heritage and history, why is he not written or even spoken more of within the community. Considering the capacity of his impact as part of the community, even if only as an outcast, has he been 'swept under the rug' and if so, why? Is Jesus 'one whose name we must not speak'? Or is he actually written of in a Jewish history book somewhere?

 

[Aviva]

You're not going to be short and snippety your entire visit, are you? What do you think of him?

I apologize for offending you by saying Jesus was a better person than Muhammad.

Plenty of people have been snippety and obnoxious towards me and I don't see you or anyone being too worried about it. It's not that I'm trying to be snippy, I'm just not very tolerant of passive aggressive behaviour or disrespect.

The reason I'm not answering questions like yours is because I believe it will open me up to being attacked. In addition it's not a Jewish forum do I'm trying not to come off like I'm attacking anyone.

 

[Mem]

I mean, I really don't care what you think of these or any other Christians, I'd only like to know what you think of Him, that we call our Lord.

 

[Mem]

I apologize for offending you by saying Jesus was a better person than Muhammad.

Plenty of people have been snippety and obnoxious towards me and I don't see you or anyone being too worried about it. It's not that I'm trying to be snippy, I'm just not very tolerant of passive aggressive behaviour or disrespect.

The reason I'm not answering questions like yours is because I believe it will open me up to being attacked. In addition it's not a Jewish forum do I'm trying not to come off like I'm attacking anyone.

Thank you for replying, in a spirit that felt much warmer to me <3 I appreciate it. And understand your reservations to refrain from answer.