The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation
- Thread starter River
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
If you are referring to Matthew 24:36, it is said in connection with the Second Coming of Christ (v 30). And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Then Jesus said this (v 36): But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only...
But this is also accompanied by verse 33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
So how should they be interpreted? The only way to reconcile these two verses is to understand that while men will know the NEARNESS of the Second Coming, no one will know THE EXACT date and time.
Then Jesus said this (v 36): But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only...
But this is also accompanied by verse 33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
So how should they be interpreted? The only way to reconcile these two verses is to understand that while men will know the NEARNESS of the Second Coming, no one will know THE EXACT date and time.
-
1
- Show all
I said:
"We all know when the second coming is going to happen. In Fact, once the tribulation starts we could pin point the day. The rapture though is imminent. And from my studies, that is pre-trib.
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit know and have known how this all unfolds."
Nehemiah6 brought up a good point. So I Will retract "we can pin point the day." Seems more like we can ALMOST pin point the day.(mankind)
"We all know when the second coming is going to happen. In Fact, once the tribulation starts we could pin point the day. The rapture though is imminent. And from my studies, that is pre-trib.
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit know and have known how this all unfolds."
Nehemiah6 brought up a good point. So I Will retract "we can pin point the day." Seems more like we can ALMOST pin point the day.(mankind)
Not only are these comments IRRELVANT, but harsh and judgmental, because this poster does not accept your views. (Possibly apply to me also, but it matters not).
1. What does "Emmanuel" have to do with this discussion? We all know that this was one of Christ's "names" and/or designations. "God was manifest in the flesh" (God with us).
2. What does "show me the Father and I will be satisfied" have to do with this discussion? Totally irrelevant and a different context altogether.
Yet you turn around and call this poster spiritually blind and "you do not know him". WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE SUCH JUDGMENTS? Stay on track, since most of your ideas are not very accurate.
1. What does "Emmanuel" have to do with this discussion? We all know that this was one of Christ's "names" and/or designations. "God was manifest in the flesh" (God with us).
2. What does "show me the Father and I will be satisfied" have to do with this discussion? Totally irrelevant and a different context altogether.
Yet you turn around and call this poster spiritually blind and "you do not know him". WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE SUCH JUDGMENTS? Stay on track, since most of your ideas are not very accurate.
So, precious friend, your four "Scriptural basis" verses eliminate All?:
The ~~ 100 Scriptures [ which have "no basis"? ] that we found for Pre-trib:
Great Grace Departure!
What happened to?:
+
These Other [ "no basis"? ] Bible study Rules!
Amen.
The ~~ 100 Scriptures [ which have "no basis"? ] that we found for Pre-trib:
Great Grace Departure!
What happened to?:
"All Scripture Is Given By Inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-27) [ "no basis"? ]
+
These Other [ "no basis"? ] Bible study Rules!
Amen.
-
1
- Show all
Sorry Grace - sometimes I'm too exuberant in defending my position. I know there are so many beautiful believers who believe in the pre-trib position, and I am in the minority in my mid-trib thinking so please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. We are just trying to do our best to become workers who are approved.
Let me explain my view this way:
I believe the grand theme of the book of Revelation is “The Heavenly Tabernacle” as described in Hebrews 8:3-5, 9:11-14. Revelation is about worship in the Heavenly Tabernacle, where there are 10 celebrations of worship throughout the book, and after each celebration of worship, something remarkable happens. Just as there were 10 plagues in the Exodus account until Pharaoh let the people of Israel go, in Revelation, the enemies of God are driven out of their strongholds and judged through the course of these 10 celebrations of worship.
I would suggest these 10 celebrations of worship are:
1) Revelation 1:10-16
2) Revelation 4:8-11
3) Revelation 5:8-14
4) Revelation 7:9-12
5) Revelation 8:1-5
6) Revelation 11:15-17
7) Revelation 12:10-12
8) Revelation 14:2-3
9) Revelation 15:3-5
10) Revelation 19:1-6
The book of Hebrews discusses how Christ is now the High Priest in the order of MELCHIZEDEK, and the Heavenly Tabernacle from chapter 5 to chapter 13, and here we find specific references throughout the book of Revelation regarding the Heavenly Tabernacle / Temple in Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 19, 13:6, 14:15, 15:5, 6, 8, 16:1, 17, 21:3, 22. However, we can also find specific references to or allusions to all of the elements within the Wilderness Tabernacle / Temple, including: The Menorah Rev 1:10 - 16, The Brazen Sea Rev 4:2, 15:2, The Lamb Sacrifice Rev 5:5-6, The Priesthood Rev 5:9, 10, The Altar Rev 6:9-10, 8:3, The Ark of the Covenant Rev 11:19, and The Showbread Table Rev 14:14-20.
So the book of Revelation is a kind of instruction on how God will use worship to drive the enemies of God out of their strongholds, and judged. Here in chapter 14 we have Messiah and his Holy Ones (aka 144,000) show up on Mt Zion, just as it prophecied in Daniel 8:13, Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:31, 25:31, and Jude 14. The 144,000 sing a new song (Revelation 14:2-3) no one could learn except the 144,000, and then the harvest event happens in chapter 14 with the wheat and grape harvests. The reason for this specific imagery is because God is preparing His Showbread table.
One more celebration of worship (Revelation 15:3-5) before the anti-creation event of Rev 16, and then Mystery Babalon, The beast, the antichrist (and then after the 1000-year reign of Messiah on earth), satan is finally thrown in the fire.
So many things line up in Biblical prophecy for this Rev 14 harvest event to be defined as the rapture.
1) The harvest imagery of Messiah's wheat and Tares parable in Matthew 13
2) The ascension of the antichrist in Rev 13
3) The return of Messiah with His Holy ones in Revelation 14
Let me explain my view this way:
I believe the grand theme of the book of Revelation is “The Heavenly Tabernacle” as described in Hebrews 8:3-5, 9:11-14. Revelation is about worship in the Heavenly Tabernacle, where there are 10 celebrations of worship throughout the book, and after each celebration of worship, something remarkable happens. Just as there were 10 plagues in the Exodus account until Pharaoh let the people of Israel go, in Revelation, the enemies of God are driven out of their strongholds and judged through the course of these 10 celebrations of worship.
I would suggest these 10 celebrations of worship are:
1) Revelation 1:10-16
2) Revelation 4:8-11
3) Revelation 5:8-14
4) Revelation 7:9-12
5) Revelation 8:1-5
6) Revelation 11:15-17
7) Revelation 12:10-12
8) Revelation 14:2-3
9) Revelation 15:3-5
10) Revelation 19:1-6
The book of Hebrews discusses how Christ is now the High Priest in the order of MELCHIZEDEK, and the Heavenly Tabernacle from chapter 5 to chapter 13, and here we find specific references throughout the book of Revelation regarding the Heavenly Tabernacle / Temple in Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 19, 13:6, 14:15, 15:5, 6, 8, 16:1, 17, 21:3, 22. However, we can also find specific references to or allusions to all of the elements within the Wilderness Tabernacle / Temple, including: The Menorah Rev 1:10 - 16, The Brazen Sea Rev 4:2, 15:2, The Lamb Sacrifice Rev 5:5-6, The Priesthood Rev 5:9, 10, The Altar Rev 6:9-10, 8:3, The Ark of the Covenant Rev 11:19, and The Showbread Table Rev 14:14-20.
So the book of Revelation is a kind of instruction on how God will use worship to drive the enemies of God out of their strongholds, and judged. Here in chapter 14 we have Messiah and his Holy Ones (aka 144,000) show up on Mt Zion, just as it prophecied in Daniel 8:13, Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:31, 25:31, and Jude 14. The 144,000 sing a new song (Revelation 14:2-3) no one could learn except the 144,000, and then the harvest event happens in chapter 14 with the wheat and grape harvests. The reason for this specific imagery is because God is preparing His Showbread table.
One more celebration of worship (Revelation 15:3-5) before the anti-creation event of Rev 16, and then Mystery Babalon, The beast, the antichrist (and then after the 1000-year reign of Messiah on earth), satan is finally thrown in the fire.
So many things line up in Biblical prophecy for this Rev 14 harvest event to be defined as the rapture.
1) The harvest imagery of Messiah's wheat and Tares parable in Matthew 13
2) The ascension of the antichrist in Rev 13
3) The return of Messiah with His Holy ones in Revelation 14
-
1
- Show all
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) - Matthew 24:15 (KJV)
—selah
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) - Matthew 24:15 (KJV)
—selah
-
2
- Show all
Yes, Salah, and the antichrist does appear here in Revelation 13:8, and then the Messiah returned to Mt Zion with His Holy Ones in Rev 14:1, just before the church is raptured in Rev 14:14-16
And we know the church is still on the earth until this point because . . . speaking of the beast, "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them" Rev 13:7
And we know the church is still on the earth until this point because . . . speaking of the beast, "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them" Rev 13:7
-
1
- Show all
My understanding:
Jesus Christ, the King of kings, will return at the end of the great tribulation; this will be at the 7th trump.
Revelation 12:9-12 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
At the time Satan is cast down, "he hath but a short time," which is 3 1/2 years, at which time he is wroth with the woman and makes war with the remnant of the woman’s seed. (12:14-17).
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This "Woe" is the last of a series of three, so it has to be subsequent to the first two, which at this stage will have already passed. In Revelation 11:14, it is written: The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Again, the third woe is described in chap. 12:12; it is the casting out of Satan.
In Dan. 9. 27, we can also read about this:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It is in the middle of the week that the third woe comes and Satan is cast out.
Conclusion:
The Messiah returns at the end of the great tribulation.
Jesus Christ, the King of kings, will return at the end of the great tribulation; this will be at the 7th trump.
Revelation 12:9-12 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
At the time Satan is cast down, "he hath but a short time," which is 3 1/2 years, at which time he is wroth with the woman and makes war with the remnant of the woman’s seed. (12:14-17).
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This "Woe" is the last of a series of three, so it has to be subsequent to the first two, which at this stage will have already passed. In Revelation 11:14, it is written: The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Again, the third woe is described in chap. 12:12; it is the casting out of Satan.
In Dan. 9. 27, we can also read about this:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It is in the middle of the week that the third woe comes and Satan is cast out.
Conclusion:
The Messiah returns at the end of the great tribulation.
-
2
- Show all
Great review, Selah.
But Messiah returns before Rev 19 - He returns in Rev 14:1 with the 144,000 to Mount Zion. This is the fulfillment of Zec 14:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, and more profoundly, it is the fulfillment of Jude 14-15 (Please read this verse)! Many people think that the 144,000 are evangelists, but they arrive with the Messiah to fulfill Isiah 63:1-6 - which we see in Rev 14:17-20. This is the second coming where Messiah comes to take the church home in Revelation 14:14-16 before the anti-creation event of Revelation 16.
But Messiah returns before Rev 19 - He returns in Rev 14:1 with the 144,000 to Mount Zion. This is the fulfillment of Zec 14:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, and more profoundly, it is the fulfillment of Jude 14-15 (Please read this verse)! Many people think that the 144,000 are evangelists, but they arrive with the Messiah to fulfill Isiah 63:1-6 - which we see in Rev 14:17-20. This is the second coming where Messiah comes to take the church home in Revelation 14:14-16 before the anti-creation event of Revelation 16.
I don't think you thought about this before you posted it. If you read the posts here seems we could learn what they're talking about because they post scriptures to back up what they believe, not just make some blind empty statement. Now to me I think maybe your just looking to start something because we know its written in 1st Thess hello caught up.
Did you know the Jewish people knew Christ was not the messiah? Yeah they lived breathed the Torah so duh they knew. Might be wise to not listen to any man and just take God at His word. He said He will come back for you. He even told us He will come in the air voice, shout, trump dead go up we change we all go up together. I think doubting this will ever happen.. well you said it huh
All my life I have never been worthy. He is my righteousness so I will bow and blindly believe ready now.
Did you know the Jewish people knew Christ was not the messiah? Yeah they lived breathed the Torah so duh they knew. Might be wise to not listen to any man and just take God at His word. He said He will come back for you. He even told us He will come in the air voice, shout, trump dead go up we change we all go up together. I think doubting this will ever happen.. well you said it huh
All my life I have never been worthy. He is my righteousness so I will bow and blindly believe ready now.