The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Nehemiah6]

The seventh or last Trumpet

Why do so many Christians confuse the 7th trumpet (which announces God's WRATH) with the "trump of God" or "the last trump" connected with the Resurrection/Rapture (which announces God's completion of His plan of SALVATION for His saints)? Those are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT trumpets, blown at different times, for totally different purposes.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You claim that His Second Coming has always been imminent and not preceded by any tribulation period, but you assign the Second Coming to a time before the tribulation.

I said no such thing. The Rapture has always been IMMINENT, but the Second Coming has not been imminent. There are a series of events which precede the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe it is in the second 3.5 years of the tribulation

Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[John146]

• Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.
  
  We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

The middle of the tribulation? Or the middle of Daniel's 70th week? The tribulation is 3.5 years, or 1,260 days, whereas, Daniel's week is 7 years. I believe we will be caught up mid way through Daniel's 70th week, right before the tribulation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm noting that in either one of your diatribes, Nehemiah, you have not provided me with a single verse that supports the Pretribulation position.

The Pretribulation position is presented in the fact the Christ can return at ANY TIME for His Bride the Church. Here are some verses:
MATTHEW 24:CHRIST IS TELLING BELIEVERS THAT HE CAN COME AT ANY TIME
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [Note: "Your Lord" is for believers, not unbelievers]
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh...

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of [Note: "That servant" is called "an evil servant" but he is still a servant of Christ, who is contrasted with a "faithful and wise servant"]

MATTHEW 25: THE BRIDEGROOM COMES FOR HIS BRIDE AT ANY TIME
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom....
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

In contrast to this, we have (1) the cataclysmic cosmic events that precede the Second Coming of Christ and (2) that His brightness is visible to the whole world before He comes:

MATTHEW 24: SIGNS PRECEDING THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Omegatime]

Why do so many Christians confuse the 7th trumpet (which announces God's WRATH) with the "trump of God" or "the last trump" connected with the Resurrection/Rapture (which announces God's completion of His plan of SALVATION for His saints)? Those are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT trumpets, blown at different times, for totally different purposes.

Maybe you are confused? And what do you understand of who is reaped in Rev. 14:14-16

 

[Omegatime]

The Judgement of the nations (gentiles)

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

Everyone agree this happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation?

34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

This is not a resurrection but to determine who will enter the Kingdom of God in the flesh to multiply upon the earth. Both the sheep and goats were unrighteous before this judgement for they came out of the bowl judgements but the Lord made those sheep righteous because they helped those fleeing the antichrist.

The rapture/resurrection happened before the bowl judgements at Rev 14:14-16. Notice the sheep were not saved but grace thru faith but by works. Heavens, even the sheep didn't know what they did right! Time of grace by faith ended at Rev 14:14-16

Zech 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18 And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall[e] come the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths.

The goats did nothing to assist those fleeing the antichrist and are condemned.

 

[Blade]

Amazing how you answered this with a few lines of text. It takes others years and so much studying and prayer but you got it with a paragraph. Who knew you were the one with the answer. Lol sorry just playing. You might want to dive in a bit more when it comes to "wrath" and what He as talking about.

No man will glory in His sight. No man is going to be able to say "I knew it I was right!". He is coming He went to make us a place and will come in the clouds but when? That is not written. Makes you wonder what they believe when they never had the NT to prove when He was really coming. He said I will come back and get you, so where I am you will be. Angels said the way He went up, He will return. I think they believed Him and were always watching ready now. Now if you're not watching not believing as in pre or mid or post it's ok you will go up anyway. Will you? For me, He has never once gone against my will. So if I am not watching not ready, do not believe I will not go. No way am I going to put my faith in someone known or unknown believer that has no more inside information then I do. Since I cannot find pre, mid, post in the word of God I will always ready now. I will never miss Him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe you are confused? And what do you understand of who is reaped in Rev. 14:14-16

That "reaping" is of the unbelieving and the ungodly as the entire passage shows (along with Revelation 19). The saints are not reaped with a metaphorical sickle. So let's look at those verses again, but include verses 17-20, since verses 14-20 are all connected:
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Christians are "in the world" but not "of the world". And the whole world "lieth in wickedness". Christians are not "of the earth" either. But the key to understanding this passage and what it is speaking of is "the winepress of THE WRATH of God" and "without [outside] the city".

Believers are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. So who is subject to the wrath of God and outside which city? The city is Jerusalem, and the account is related to the battle of Armageddon. This picture is completed in Revelation 19:11-21, which includes verse 15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I said no such thing. The Rapture has always been IMMINENT, but the Second Coming has not been imminent. There are a series of events which precede the Second Coming of Christ.

I'm noting that in either one of your diatribes, Nehemiah, you have not provided me with a single verse that supports the Pretribulation position. That's because your position is eisegetical and not exegetical - you impress your belief on the scriptures rather than draw it out of the text. This is because the Pretribulation theological position is baseless! You use verses that affirm the rapture as though they support the Pretribulation rapture position, so you have to defend your baseless belief by attacking me and by suggesting I don't understand God's covenant with the church or His love for the church. The point I'm making in siting 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the fallacious application people like you have made of this verse because of your erroneous Pretribulation theological position. The verse isn't talking about the application of God's wrath on anyone in this world, it's talking about God's wrath in His final judgment!

Brother …..Jesus literally preaches a sermon and tells them you are definately going to be present during these terrible times I’m telling you about but stay strong to the end and you’ll be saved and then literally ends his sermon with after that tribulation I just explained to you then I will come to gather my elect people

But even Jesus the lord words about his own return will not even budge the pre tribbers here nor Paul’s words about it not even an inch…..


“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: for many shall come in my name,( false teachers ) saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no one should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

….But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:5-6, 8-13, 18-21, 23-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as clear as this is and given its divine source it has no effect on some who are convinced of other things mostly they explain why what they are saying is right and that scripture stuff just isn’t right

 

[Omegatime]

That "reaping" is of the unbelieving and the ungodly as the entire passage shows (along with Revelation 19). The saints are not reaped with a metaphorical sickle. So let's look at those verses again, but include verses 17-20, since verses 14-20 are all connected:
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Christians are "in the world" but not "of the world". And the whole world "lieth in wickedness". Christians are not "of the earth" either. But the key to understanding this passage and what it is speaking of is "the winepress of THE WRATH of God" and "without [outside] the city".

Believers are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. So who is subject to the wrath of God and outside which city? The city is Jerusalem, and the account is related to the battle of Armageddon. This picture is completed in Revelation 19:11-21, which includes verse 15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

We will have to disagree

 

[Nehemiah6]

..as clear as this is...

The passages you have quoted applied to the apostles and disciples in the 1st century. By the same token the apostolic churches expected the coming of Christ FOR His saints even then. Read Paul's epistles.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The passages you have quoted applied to the apostles and disciples in the 1st century. By the same token the apostolic churches expected the coming of Christ FOR His saints even then. Read Paul's epistles.

Yes that’s what I was saying some folks here just explain away all the answers in scriptire eith thier mind boggling intellect that never ever agrees with scripture regarding the subject they are expounding lol

 

[River]

River, you said the resurrection/ rapture happens after 3 1/2 years-----add 75 days. This takes us to the prophet Daniels 1335th day, the Blessed day at Rev.14:14-16. 1260 plus 75 = 1335 days.

This Blessed day is Pentecost. Just as the church started at Pentecost so will it end on the self-same day. Notice also when Peter spoke on that Pentecost quoting the prophet Joel; Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. But Peter changed it to Great and Glorious. And the Day of the Lord begins at Rev 14:14-16.

Joel was speaking of the unrighteous, Peter the righteous (christians. Joel was speaking of those in Rev 14:17-20 Peter those in Rev 14:14-16.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Great input, Omegatime!!! I'll have to take a look at this - thank you!!!

 

[River]

yeah ll we have to do is read what Jesus said about it , then what his apostles said about it and it’s absolutely clear there is no such thing as a “pre tribulation “rapture Jesus promised his disciples they would certainly face it and j this world but to be strong through it and endure

Mat 24:9-12 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Mat 24:9-12 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a cliff just ahead …….do we pretend we dont know ?

Or shout from the rooftops there’s a cliff ahead even if a feeling gets offended …..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Mat 24:9-12 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.

look what started the convo between Jesus and his disciples

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

( 1 )Tell us, when shall these things be?

(2 )and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:4, 9, 11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The point is only that Jesus is addressing two subjects the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in ad 67 and also he’s discussing the end of the world and his return

If we look at mark Luke and matthews accounts of the same sermons it offers so much more understanding

“Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:10-13, 22‬ ‭

see Jesus is talking the long picture concerning his return and the end but also the immediate picture for jerusalem and the fulfillment of then prophets punishments upon them namely the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple that Jesus and the prophets before him foretold

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;( rome in ad 67-70 destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Jesus says ( desolation “ spoken of by Daniel the prophet let the hearer understand )

When they killed the messiah it assured the desolation and destruction of Jerusalem and its temple a lot of what jesusnos saying there is about the immediate destruction of Jerusalem and then he’s also talking about the long picture until the end of the world in the same sermon because they ask him two seperate questions

When will the temple and city be destroyed ?

And what are the signs of your coming and end of the world ?

It’s helpful fornus to see the two subjects that are diverse within the context of the discussion they are having some things were immediate others were distant

 

[Kroogz]

The Pretribulation position is presented in the fact the Christ can return at ANY TIME for His Bride the Church. Here are some verses:
MATTHEW 24:CHRIST IS TELLING BELIEVERS THAT HE CAN COME AT ANY TIME
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [Note: "Your Lord" is for believers, not unbelievers]
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh...

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of [Note: "That servant" is called "an evil servant" but he is still a servant of Christ, who is contrasted with a "faithful and wise servant"]

MATTHEW 25: THE BRIDEGROOM COMES FOR HIS BRIDE AT ANY TIME
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom....
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

In contrast to this, we have (1) the cataclysmic cosmic events that precede the Second Coming of Christ and (2) that His brightness is visible to the whole world before He comes:

MATTHEW 24: SIGNS PRECEDING THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That is my problem with the thought/belief of the rapture sometime during the tribulation. That belief has the rapture pin pointed at a certain time. We would know the time of the rapture. And no one knows the day or time of the rapture. Only the pre-trib rapture makes sense for that.

 

[Omegatime]

That is my problem with the thought/belief of the rapture sometime during the tribulation. That belief has the rapture pin pointed at a certain time. We would know the time of the rapture. And no one knows the day or time of the rapture. Only the pre-trib rapture makes sense for that.

I really dont understand the thinking of many when they do not understand the words--Only the Father knows

Was our Lord God or not? If you know Jesus as Lord, God and Savior then what was he teaching?

Or are you so foolish to believe this was the only thing our Lord didn't know?

 

[JTB]

Pray for pre,

prepare for post,

and any other time (like right now) would be just fine