He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

[mailmandan]

Thanks for your comments. I have some thoughts but I don't have time to put them in order so that they make sense. However, this question basically is the root of the matter.

What did they fall away from?

From their prior confession of faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Some people may actually start out believing in the Lord just like they believe in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that God does not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more.

 

[turbosixx]

From their prior confession of faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Some people may actually start out believing in the Lord just like they believe in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that God does not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more.

Could you please give a little more detail on what you mean by this? their prior confession of faith...may actually start out believing in the Lord The reason I ask is because you made this point in the other post NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

 

[rogerg]

Well since God desires the salvation of ALL MANKIND, He would give the gift of faith to all, not just "the ones He has chosen".

"All men" means all mankind. And "a ransom for all" reinforces that. So clearly you are promoting a FALSE GOSPEL.

Wrong. The "all" are all those whom God chose to salvation and whom He has/will give to Christ, that is not everyone. Being complete in and of itself, the Bible functions as its own dictionary and glossary of terms which we should trust implicitly. Therefore, based upon the below verses, we can see it would be impossible for anyone, other than for those whom the Father gave to Christ, to be covered by Christ. So, whenever you read "all" in terms of salvation, think of the "all" in terms of all those whom the Father gave/gives to Christ.

[Jhn 6:37, 39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Jhn 6:45 KJV]
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So in reality you DO NOT believe God and Christ, who said this: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17). He also repeated this in other passages.

Yes, I believe that, but it is the new heavens and new earth which are in reference, and they which will be saved, not the current heavens and earth. They will be saved because those who were chosen to eternally inhabit them with/through Christ were/are those saved by Christ. Otherwise, the new heavens and earth would have no purpose and therefore would not be created. These current ones are to be destroyed. If the current heavens and earth were those intended by God to be saved, then He would be at cross-purposes with Himself, as evidenced below, He would have to both save them, and yet, at the same time, destroy them, but that obviously is impossible, so thereby, we can know it can only mean the ones to come which will be saved, this current world to be destroyed.

[Isa 65:17 KJV]
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

[2Pe 3:13 KJV]
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[2Pe 3:10-11 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

[2Pe 3:7 KJV]
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Wrong. The "all" are all those whom God chose to salvation and whom He has/will give to Christ, that is not everyone.

Unfortunately for you... limited atonement is false doctrine according to scripture.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and has given every man faith (Romans 12:3)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

Here's the scripture references that prove john calvin's false doctrine of limited atonement is... FALSE DOCTRINE!


Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

*God foreknew ALL human beings He created... as in, He knew they were going to be created and He provide an avenue for each one to be able to get saved if they will submit themselves to God and resist the devil...

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

*This is WHY not everyone gets saved even though the Lord has provided a way for all to be saved... as verse 19 tells us - man is without excuse!

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

*It's too bad calvinists don't believe Jesus knows what He's talkin about

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

Looks like Jimmy and I are on the same page here. Then he quotes Romans 8:29, 30 and misrepresents what it says.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Looks like Jimmy and I are on the same page here. Then he quotes Romans 8:29, 30 and misrepresents what it says.

So you believe God has no clue about what's going to happen in the future?

And, you believe when God created each person it was NOT His intent for them to abide In Him and be a part of God's family even though scripture says it was???

This is what some of calvin's peoples falsely claim as they ignore the rest of God's Word as usual.

 

[rogerg]

Unfortunately for you... limited atonement is false doctrine according to scripture.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and has given every man faith (Romans 12:3)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

Here's the scripture references that prove john calvin's false doctrine of limited atonement is... FALSE DOCTRINE!


Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

*God foreknew ALL human beings He created... as in, He knew they were going to be created and He provide an avenue for each one to be able to get saved if they will submit themselves to God and resist the devil...

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

*This is WHY not everyone gets saved even though the Lord has provided a way for all to be saved... as verse 19 tells us - man is without excuse!

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

*It's too bad calvinists don't believe Jesus knows what He's talkin about View attachment 258532

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I'm not going to go through each of the above verses because the "all" in them pertains to the below. However, as to Romans
12:3, the "every man the measure of faith" means "THE measure of faith", not "A measure of faith"; that is, for those saved, they are
given the ability to assess/measure Christ's faith - that it brought forth salvation. It does not mean that everyone is given some true faith if that is what you had in mind.

You obviously didn't read the verses I included that define who the "all" are. Based upon those verses, it would be a logical impossibility for the "all" to be other than those whom the Father gave to the Son for salvation, whenever "all" is encountered in relation to salvation. You do not let the Bible define its own terms. "all" does not mean everyone; it means all of those chosen by the Father. You should not superimpose your own definition of the word "all" over the definition of "all" the Bible provides - "all" is not to be understood as standalone.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

You obviously didn't read the verses I included that define who the "all" are.

I know, I know... "all" is only referring to calvinists who make God into a monster by claiming God actually wants most people to go to hell and is actually preventing most people from getting saved as He created most people for the sole purpose of going to hell.... calvinism is clearly a doctrine of demons!

Calvinism rejects all the passages I posted showing clearly that it's not only God's desire for all to be saved, He also provided a way for all to be saved.

One must reject a lot of passages to adhere to the pathetic false doctrines of john calvin who is an unrepentant murderer based on his own writings. calvinism has more in common with islam than it does true Christianity.

To be a calvinist... one MUST claim these scriptures are in fact... lies!

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Sorry homie.. it is YOU that does not understand.

 

[Inquisitor]

James Chapter 2

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. 2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, 3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: 4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? 5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? 8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. 10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

You can only be saved by believing in Jesus but you can lose your salvation. By not bearing the appropriate works that justify that faith.

22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

 

[Nehemiah6]

So you believe God has no clue about what's going to happen in the future?

QUITE THE OPPOSITE. The word "predestined" or "predestinated" means that God knows EXACTLY what will happen the future. And predestination actually refutes your ideas about losing salvation. It is for one purpose only as revealed in Rom 8:29: "To be conformed to the image of [God's] Son".
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now think about that. God could not predestinate anyone if there was even the slightest possibility of one losing his or her salvation! "To be conformed to the image of His Son" means to be perfected into the likeness of Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture (1 John 3:1-3). Therefore, the ones He calls He justifies, then sanctifies, and eventually He glorifies. That is what the following verse says: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. While sanctification is not mentioned in this verse, it is a Gospel truth which follows justification. But the glorification of the saints is guaranteed by God.

And, you believe when God created each person it was NOT His intent for them to abide In Him and be a part of God's family even though scripture says it was??

Abiding in Christ is a necessity and is also a given. Those who genuinely turn to Christ for salvation, also surrender their hearts and lives to Him, and try to bear spiritual fruit.

Since I have no use for Five-Point Calvinism, I do not accept that gospel. By the same token all you have to do is carefully read the Westminster Confession of Faith to see that Reformed Theology in no way suggests that those who are saved can go on sinning. QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

The word "predestined" or "predestinated" means that God knows EXACTLY what will happen the future.

All these other scriptures say it's God's will that ALL be saved... so He is not preventing anybody from getting saved as you calvinists suppose.

As these other scripture indicate... God predesignated ALL to be saved and did not predesignate most to go to hell.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What part of "He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son" can't you understand?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

no matter how many Verses can be produced, this explains all of it:


from Romans 1:

19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them, for God has manifested it to them.

20 For his attributes which are invisible, since the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being perceived by the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, so that they are without excuse

God shows even those that sadly reject Him, His power/divinity, and even Verse 19 says that God has even manifested [[in them, i take this that they can feel it and they intellectually know it some how]] ...this clearly is God DRAWING these People to Him.


Romans 1 even shows us how this is much like how God has Drawn All of us to Him. but as we clearly see, even when God draws you to Him, it is possible to reject Him.

so, God, not only Died for every single Person who has, is, and will be living, but, He also has Drawn All of them to Him.
But only a few, compared to the whole of all humanity, choose the Narrow Path.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

as we clearly see, even when God draws you to Him, it is possible to reject Him.

That's the part calvin's people will never agree with

If they did, all the other calvin peoples will kick them out of the Association of Calvin's People and give them the left foot of fellowship claiming they were never elect in the first place!

To be a member in good standing with the Association of Calvin's People one must tow the party line ya know.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What part of "He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son" can't you understand?

For whom he did foreknow is the key word in verse 29. This is about God's foreknowledge and not fatalistic determination. Also, read verse 30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 1 even shows us how this is much like how God has Drawn All of us to Him. but as we clearly see, even when God draws you to Him, it is possible to reject Him.

so, God, not only Died for every single Person who has, is, and will be living, but, He also has Drawn All of them to Him.
But only a few, compared to the whole of all humanity, choose the Narrow Path.

[Rom 9:8, 11, 13, 15-16, 18, 20-24 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. ...
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

[Rom 9:8, 11, 13, 15-16, 18, 20-24 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. ...
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Give me a minute.

Holy Moly someone who takes single Verses out of complete context and then makes them into a conglomerate thought.

Wow, this is a lot to unfold here.

Before I get into this, there's about 30 Verses that claim the majority of the points you are attempting to make are for the JEWS only.

Let me grab the Tanakh and the Greek.

I hope everything can fit on 1 page, but, give me time and I will directly respond to each Verse.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Actually, you are just using Romans here mostly.

Nevermind mind.

Saw a wall of text.

This will be easier.

Whew!!

 

[rogerg]

Give me a minute.

Holy Moly someone who takes single Verses out of complete context and then makes them into a conglomerate thought.

Wow, this is a lot to unfold here.

Before I get into this, there's about 30 Verses that claim the majority of the points you are attempting to make are for the JEWS only.

Let me grab the Tanakh and the Greek.

I hope everything can fit on 1 page, but, give me time and I will directly respond to each Verse.

First, they were not taken out of context at all, some verses that were not germane were not included for ease of understanding.
However, I can put them in if you want, or, after all, they're not secret and there to be read if desired.
Those verses were not taken individually from different places but were all from the same chapter in physical
proximity to each other.
Second, it does not pertain to the Jews only. Read verse 24. It pertains to all of the elect.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Let me get off the mobile so I can access the online version

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

First, they were not taken out of context at all, some verses that were not germane were not included for ease of understanding.
However, I can put them in if you want, or, after all, they're not secret and there to be read if desired.
Those verses were not taken individually from different places but were all from the same chapter in physical
proximity to each other.
Second, it does not pertain to the Jews only. Read verse 24. It pertains to all of the elect.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

No you did good, I misread.

I like your defense.

But I need to get on the computer lol my little phone only gives me 1 page access at a time