We are not yet in the New Covenant prophecied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel - that is the Millennial reign

[Cameron143]

Also, you said He fulfilled the commandment. That happened at the cross. How can he break a commandment before he died on the cross (which is what you claim to be the fulfillment of the commandment)?

Do you believe Jesus sinned during His lifetime on earth?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Shalom DavidIsrael

when you say, Yeshua, has not completed the Tanakh, are you talking about the specifics of End Time Prophecy mentioned in Daniel, Psalms, Prophets, etc?

 

[posthuman]

Multiple meanings =/= Multiple purposes.

False equivalence. Some of you really need a lesson on language and English.

you said:

No prophecy has double "meaning". That would mean G-d is trying to say two things at the same time,

seems like your objection was that having more than one meaning indicates having more than one purpose, and you consider this to be necessarily evil. perhaps you did not communicate your objection optimally.


dying to spiritually save Israel does not mean the same thing as dying to spiritually save Gentiles nor does either mean the same thing as dying to physically prevent a potential political upheaval which could result in physical death and persecution of Israelites.

but the prophesy meant/indicated all three things, and it was by the Holy Spirit. one death served three purposes.

 

[turbosixx]

The church is commissioned to announce the kingdom of God [Millennial age] not to set it up.

Jesus proclaimed the kingdom was at hand and He described the kingdom several times. Do His descriptions describe the kingdom you picture from the OT?

 

[turbosixx]

because Man was not ready, and hence has to be fulfilled again.

What if man is not ready the second time?

 

[NightTwister]

If we're still under the Old Covenant, we better start killing some cows.

 

[turbosixx]

Yes or no, does a testament require the death of the testator?
Yes or no, does a covenant require death for it to come to pass?

I'm not the sharpest knife but here are my thoughts. The Greek word used.
diathéké: testament, will, covenant
Original Word: διαθήκη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: diathéké
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ath-ay'-kay)
Definition: testament, will, covenant
Usage: (a) a covenant between two parties, (b) (the ordinary, everyday sense [found a countless number of times in papyri]) a will, testament.

Also, do have an example of a covenant that doesn't have a death involved?

 

[DavidIsrael]

Do you believe Jesus sinned during His lifetime on earth?

No, I am saying that even if a person like Moses doesn't keep some commandments with the intention of saving a life, it is not a sin. That's the concept called Pikuach Nefesh (search about it). It's just like science. There are laws. But almost all laws are conditional. Hooke's law states that stress is directly proportional to strain - is it always? No. It is conditional. What is the condition? "Within the limits of elasticity". Same with G-d's commandments.

 

[DavidIsrael]

Shalom DavidIsrael

when you say, Yeshua, has not completed the Tanakh, are you talking about the specifics of End Time Prophecy mentioned in Daniel, Psalms, Prophets, etc?

Shalom! Yes. For example, Isaiah 49 talks about a prophet who will bring the lost tribes of Israel back to the land and reunite them with the Jews. This is a Messianic prophecy. All these are Old Covenant prophecies - what is the Old Covenant? The promises to Abraham and his descendants. Until they are fulfilled, the New Covenant will not start - which is the Millennial reign. So we are in a new covenant by Jesus but that is a covenant inside the Old Covenant just like Moses, Noah, Abraham, David all had separate covenants inside what we call the Old Covenant.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I am saying that even if a person like Moses doesn't keep some commandments with the intention of saving a life, it is not a sin. That's the concept called Pikuach Nefesh (search about it). It's just like science. There are laws. But almost all laws are conditional. Hooke's law states that stress is directly proportional to strain - is it always? No. It is conditional. What is the condition? "Within the limits of elasticity". Same with G-d's commandments.

Loving God and loving others is the whole of the commandments. If something is done according to these two requirements, it cannot be sin. So if someone believes a law has been broken when it fulfills these 2 requirements, it is the understanding of the commandment, and not the commandment, that is in error.

 

[DavidIsrael]

If we're still under the Old Covenant, we better start killing some cows.

Adam, Noah and Abraham were all in the same "Old Covenant" but only a couple of them did what you said. Because the promises of the individual covenants given to them inside what we collectively call the Old Covenant were different. Same way - we are in a new covenant through Jesus inside the same Old Covenant and are still not in the New Covenant mentioned by Jeremiah and Ezekiel so the promises and expectations of Jesus need to be fulfilled. Did anyone in history ever do animal sacrifice for salvation? No. That is a false assumption Paul makes when he compares the Old Covenant with Jesus's new covenant. So no point doing sacrifices anymore because we know something the Jews don't - the animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Jesus dying on the cross. G-d wanted us to do the animal sacrifices only for one purpose - to remind us that we need to repent and stop in the evil ways. Can we do that using Jesus' death on the cross as a reminder so that we will atone and turn away from sin? Yes.

 

[DavidIsrael]

Loving God and loving others is the whole of the commandments. If something is done according to these two requirements, it cannot be sin. So if someone believes a law has been broken when it fulfills these 2 requirements, it is the understanding of the commandment, and not the commandment, that is in error.

You can still love G-d and commit personal sins. Doesn't mean you don't love G-d. So I guess my explanation of what is sin and not is better than yours.

 

[Tish]

The title of your thread is not only provocative but TOTALLY FALSE and misleading.

Obviously you need to study this matter properly. When the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh on the day of Pentecost, that prophecy of Joel was fulfilled. And the outpouring of the Holy Spirit meant that the New Covenant was now in effect.

While the New Covenant was given to Israel, Gentile believers were definitely NOT excluded. Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant (see the epistle to the Hebrews) and is "a Light to lighten the Gentiles". Thus Gentiles were added or grafted into the "good olive tree" of remnant Jews who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 11.

As to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years, that will only be fulfilled after the Second Coming of Christ. It has only been partially fulfilled. But it has no bearing on the New Covenant being in effect from the day Christ died. What did Jesus say at the Last Supper?And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament [Covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28) So the day Christ shed His blood for our redemption was the day when the New Covenant or Testament went into effect.

 

[DavidIsrael]

Yes, check out this write-up (the last few pages of it) -

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=107244867552076782767

and this image -

I'm explaining what Jesus meant.

 

[NightTwister]

I'm explaining what Jesus meant.

You're explaining what you believe Jesus meant, but he didn't mean that.

 

[Tish]

Why wouldn’t the new covenant be in effect now? When Jesus said “It is finished”, wasn’t it? It’s the finished work of the cross that brought the new covenant into effect. Hebrews 10 talks about doing away with the first covenant and establishing a new, better one. And because God accepted the once for all sacrifice, King Jesus is at the Fathers right hand in the place of authority as our forever high priest Jesus is actually the executor of His own will. I love that.

 

[DavidIsrael]

You're explaining what you believe Jesus meant, but he didn't mean that.

I don't see any arguments from you. I could be wrong but I am not going to concede that when members of the Whore of Babylon (confusion) like you dismissing my interpretation without an explanation.

 

[Cameron143]

You can still love G-d and commit personal sins. Doesn't mean you don't love G-d. So I guess my explanation of what is sin and not is better than yours.

Hardly. There is a difference between a love of God and individual acts being loving towards God. Same with people. I can love my wife but not act lovingly towards her. But if the action I perform is an act that demonstrates love towards God or an individual, it cannot be in violation of a commandment by definition. It is the perversion of the commandment that allows for an action that fulfills the law to appear to transgress it.

 

[DavidIsrael]

Why wouldn’t the new covenant be in effect now? When Jesus said “It is finished”, wasn’t it? It’s the finished work of the cross that brought the new covenant into effect. Hebrews 10 talks about doing away with the first covenant and establishing a new, better one. And because God accepted the once for all sacrifice, King Jesus is at the Fathers right hand in the place of authority as our forever high priest Jesus is actually the executor of His own will. I love that.

When Jesus said, "It was finished". His role was finished. How are people like Abraham going to be saved? By works or by the blood of Jesus? By the blood of Jesus. So are you saying that because Jesus lived after Abraham, Abraham cannot be saved because "It is not yet finished"?

Again, I am not arguing if we are in a new covenant. My argument specifically is: are we in the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah and Ezekiel? If yes, why haven't the prophecies mentioned there that would happen before the start of the New Covenant been fulfilled?

Hebrews 10 is wrong. The Old Covenant is not something you do away with and especially not because there was something wrong with it. Stop propagating the bullcrap that Paul (I like Paul, not sure why he did that there) promotes that the Old Covenant and the Torah has some flaw in it. The Old Testament and it's laws and prophecies are beyond amazing. But I agree that so is Jesus' death on the cross. Doesn't mean one is flawed and needs replacement. Paul is wrong. And Jesus said everything in the Old Covenant will be fulfilled? Has it? No. So how can we enter a New Covenant before that?

I agree with your last statement. I love that too.

 

[NightTwister]

I don't see any arguments from you. I could be wrong but I am not going to concede that when members of the Whore of Babylon (confusion) like you dismissing my interpretation without an explanation.

Straight to ad hominem. I'm not at all surprised.