Is there really demons, angels and a Devil or is God in control of these things himself? Us and Him.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N

negus

New member
#1
Apr 7, 2020
3
1
3
45
Australia
#1
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
 
N

negus

New member
#2
Apr 7, 2020
3
1
3
45
Australia
#2
So in effect if God knows everything, and provides boundaries for Satan, doesnt that mean that He was in control when Satan tempted Adam, and when Satan tempted Jesus?
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#3
Feb 15, 2014
3,773
941
113
62
#3
negus said:
So in effect if God knows everything, and provides boundaries for Satan, doesnt that mean that He was in control when Satan tempted Adam, and when Satan tempted Jesus?
Click to expand...
I dont know you will get an sufficient answer.
The best you will get them from God himself.
I believe that God is in controle. But he makes no puppets for to follow Him. He loves all mankind and gave His son (himself) for to save all people. What greater proof I need?
Even I have questions like you have.
I Trust Him! So I dont need all answers.
I know many people which reject God because of these questions. But for me it seems they search a reason for not must believe in Him.
There will be a final day and all will get an answer. Nobody then will be able to accuse God for an unrightesness creating of them.

Its the question do I trust Him even I have not all answers.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#4
Jun 11, 2018
3,344
3,720
113
68
#4
Hello @negus, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass (before it happens). This means that He.....

1. causes or
2. allows​

.......everything that happens (or 3. He can stop something from happening too, of course).

In the Garden, He allowed Satan to both lie to and tempt our first parents, and He also allowed them to fall into sin. He did not cause Satan to lie to and tempt them, nor did He force either one of our progenitors to sin.

God bless you!

~Deut
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#5
Jun 11, 2018
3,344
3,720
113
68
#5
God is from everlasting to everlasting .. Psalm 90:2.

He declares the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:9-10.

He tempts no one .. James 1:13.

In fact, He makes sure that we are not tempted beyond that which we can endure, and He provides us with a way of escape from each of the temptations that we face .. 1 Corinthians 10:13 :)

God doesn’t cause us to sin. He doesn’t need to, because we are all quite capable of doing that w/o any help from Him. Rather, He is at work in the lives of all of His children to sanctify us from here to Glory (IOW, He makes it His business to help us ‘not’ sin).

~Deut
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#6
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#6
negus said:
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
Click to expand...
God created all things, even evil. God created things to work so if there is an up there is a down, if there is good there is evil. God created the angels and they have freedom to chose like we are given that freedom. Satan was a beautiful angel so full of himself that he (it?) felt in competition with God and chose evil.

We have been assured that this earth will fall away and judgement will come. All things will be made new, and God will win over evil.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#8
Jun 30, 2015
25,594
13,857
113
#8
negus said:
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
Click to expand...
Welcome to CC, Negus...
You've brought up several major issues in your title and opening post (OP). It would be best to break them apart into separate questions.

The title, for example, addresses the existence of non-physical beings aside from God, and also the degree to which God has control over these beings. Those are separate issues. Then in your post you bring up predestination and God's foreknowledge; separate issues again.

It's not that your questions by themselves are problematic, but it's best to address these issues separately. :)
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#10
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#10
negus said:
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
Click to expand...
  • If we are created in God's "likeness" (Gen.1:26-28) then we have a free will - for He has a free will.
  • If God is ALL-mighty He does not have to touch our free will. He can order circumstances that affect our decisions
  • If God is ALL-knowing, He can see the heart of every man and order circumstances based on this view. Example - the choice of David above his brothers
  • If man has a free will and his heart is at enmity with God, he, not God, is responsible for being an enemy and transgressor
  • If man makes a decision against God, man is responsible for evil
  • God did not create evil. Evil is not a creation. It is a moral condition set before, and compared with, a set of morals. The Creator and Owner of creation gets to set the morals
  • God has the ability to right all wrongs, but He set a Law in place that what is sown - is reaped
  • God has the ability to eradicate evil. He is taking much longer than men live - 7,000 years. So it seems like He is not
  • God is able to eradicate evil WITHOUT the evil escaping retribution - the Lake of Fire
  • God does not wink at a single sin. It's wages either fall on Jesus, or they fall on the perpetrator if he does not accept Jesus' work
 
J

JohnPost1

Banned
#11
Jun 26, 2020
14
13
3
#11
negus said:
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
Click to expand...
God created everything and controls things as he wants.
See, there really are demons, the Devil, as there are angels from God, etc.
Just be on God's side, because he is going to win in the end, and his enemies will be destroyed.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#12
Aug 28, 2012
19,498
2,700
113
#12
negus said:
If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?
Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

I need some guidance on this matter.

Negus
Click to expand...
There is another side to the job God and satan story though, true God gave him the ok to do these things to job but satan also said he would turn on God and it was kind of a bet, God allowed this not because he knew what would happen but because he knew Job's heart.
If Job had spoke against god which at one point he almost he did then God would have lost that bet but satan in his arragonce thought he knew job better.

Think of it this way, if there was no free will and if God preordained every choice every person was going to make then why does he command one to obey? if we either were going to obey or not he wouldn't bother saying anything, if we were going to be saved or not be saved then why is salvation called a gift?
A gift is not forced on you and you are not obligated to receive it.

How both God and devil works is not by force but by influence it is a chess game between the two and we are the pieces if free will was not a thing then they would not operate by influence, guidance or temptation faith or doubt fear or courage willing or unwilling.
All these things are all over the bible and spoken and taught but what do all these things have in common? They are influence.
The reason God does not control us like puppets is because he treasures a willing heart not a controlled one, he treasures a child who loves and adores him not by force or by mere obedience but because they want to because real love is done by the motivation of ones heart otherwise is it really love?

God had the angels and even satan before his fall but they knew him they were with him, however we didn't know him and were not with him so how much more beautiful and precious is it to have children of your own design love you for you even if they barely know you?
 
P

Prycejosh1987

Well-known member
#13
Jul 19, 2020
1,016
189
63
#13
negus said:
There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?
Click to expand...
I believe that the devil wants to take everyone to hell. Remember Peter, Jesus said the devil wanted to sift him as wheat but that he (Jesus) prayed for him that his faith should not fail, and when he is strengthened he should help the others. Peter was the head of the first church, he was one of the select 3 (Peter, James, John) Peter also rebuked Jesus for wanting to go to the cross, Peter also walked on water to Jesus although temporarily. The devil tried to work in Jesus closest and most spiritual disciple to bring Jesus and his message and sacrifice down. He (Devil) is a very smart foe, fortunately he is restricted by God. However God lets the devil work when we naturally disobey and show no concern over what we do. Many are called but few are chosen.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#14
Jul 3, 2015
61,105
30,235
113
#14
Dino246 said:
Where is that in Scripture?
Click to expand...
Blik believes good cannot exist without evil. Kind of like the yin/yang perhaps? I am not sure. It is like saying God does
not exist alone, or that there is by necessity some evil within God, which we know is not true according to Scripture.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#15
Mar 1, 2022
20,061
6,873
113
62
#15
Magenta said:
Blik believes good cannot exist without evil. Kind of like the yin/yang perhaps? I am not sure. It is like saying God does
not exist alone, or that there is by necessity some evil within God, which we know is not true according to Scripture.
Click to expand...
God has created good and very good. In doing so, bad and very bad became possible. God authored the good and very good. He only authored the possibility of bad and very bad.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#16
Jul 3, 2015
61,105
30,235
113
#16
Cameron143 said:
God has created good and very good. In doing so, bad and very bad became possible. God
authored the good and very good. He only authored the possibility of bad and very bad.
Click to expand...
He also defines what is good, and what is evil. He Himself alone is good.
 
Fundaamental

Fundaamental

Well-known member
#18
Mar 17, 2023
3,289
421
83
#18
Blain said:
There is another side to the job God and satan story though, true God gave him the ok to do these things to job but satan also said he would turn on God and it was kind of a bet, God allowed this not because he knew what would happen but because he knew Job's heart.
If Job had spoke against god which at one point he almost he did then God would have lost that bet but satan in his arragonce thought he knew job better.

Think of it this way, if there was no free will and if God preordained every choice every person was going to make then why does he command one to obey? if we either were going to obey or not he wouldn't bother saying anything, if we were going to be saved or not be saved then why is salvation called a gift?
A gift is not forced on you and you are not obligated to receive it.

How both God and devil works is not by force but by influence it is a chess game between the two and we are the pieces if free will was not a thing then they would not operate by influence, guidance or temptation faith or doubt fear or courage willing or unwilling.
All these things are all over the bible and spoken and taught but what do all these things have in common? They are influence.
The reason God does not control us like puppets is because he treasures a willing heart not a controlled one, he treasures a child who loves and adores him not by force or by mere obedience but because they want to because real love is done by the motivation of ones heart otherwise is it really love?

God had the angels and even satan before his fall but they knew him they were with him, however we didn't know him and were not with him so how much more beautiful and precious is it to have children of your own design love you for you even if they barely know you?
Click to expand...
There's a lot more to it than meets the eye, there is much mystery surrounding the spiritual world.

I often wonder if the spiritual beings that came to earth where from a place that stands still.

I often wonder that when theese spiritual being come into close proximity of a person , because where from a place that doesn't stand still there is some sort of energy field that opens up between past present and future.

Where by there time, is still standing still but out time is still moving forward.

It could be some sort of energy clash that happens and enables your future to be seen

Maybe as well something that theese creatures can see too.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#20
Aug 28, 2012
19,498
2,700
113
#20
Fundaamental said:
There's a lot more to it than meets the eye, there is much mystery surrounding the spiritual world.

I often wonder if the spiritual beings that came to earth where from a place that stands still.

I often wonder that when theese spiritual being come into close proximity of a person , because where from a place that doesn't stand still there is some sort of energy field that opens up between past present and future.

Where by there time, is still standing still but out time is still moving forward.

It could be some sort of energy clash that happens and enables your future to be seen

Maybe as well something that theese creatures can see too.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.